LGBT in schools vs religious parents

[8ball]

notice how 'Keira' was being paraded, lauded and funded by the far right groups funding this until it became clear the case was lost and that Bell;s future gender direction was not a 'de-transition' into a perfect submissive tradwife

see also " the Detransition advocacy network " and it's 'Hundreds ' of service users ...

The whole case as I understood it was that Keira had been damaged by being irreversibly masculinised by the medical treatments that had been administered.

 

[InArduisFouette]

The whole case as I understood it was that Keira had been damaged by being irreversibly masculinised by the medical treatments that had been administered.

treatments she provided informed consent for as an adult and which had nothing at all to do with GIDS

hormonal treatment which apparently she has recommenced rather than feminising hormonal treatment


the judge in the appeal didn;t quite go as far as calling Bell a liar but the original verdict was overturned

 

[Spymaster]

Ok.

What else did you mean by what you said, aside from my re-formulation?

Well then it becomes a matter of definition, doesn't it?

My belief of what a woman is, is a biological woman.

If someone wants to redefine "woman", I'll listen. But I'll take some convincing that it's much different to redefining a tiger as an elephant.

However, Ireland just beat France in the rugby, so I'm well pissed; and will withdraw for the evening.

 

[8ball]

treatments she provided informed consent for as an adult and which had nothing at all to do with GIDS

hormonal treatment which apparently she has recommenced rather than feminising hormonal treatment


the judge in the appeal didn;t quite go as far as calling Bell a liar but the original verdict was overturned

“Apparently”

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Going after Keira Bell personally like this, with a bunch of unsourced 'apparentlys' is low.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Going after Keira Bell personally like this, with a bunch of unsourced 'apparentlys' is low.

why given Bell's proven untruths and mis representation caused the cessation of evidence based care for under 18s and continued assaults evidence based for over 18s.

the now overturned verdicat also placed questiosn over the viability of repeorductive and sexual health care for under 18s and even placed questions as to whather it would be legal to treat under 18s for cncer if there wasa clear risk of damage to ther reproductive systems

 

[smokedout]

The Keira Bell case had little to do with Keira Bell. It was a Judicial Review which examined whether under 16s could legally consent to puberty blockers and whether the Tavistock's procedures for establishing consent were adequate (yes and yes as it turned out). As a former patient Bell was considered an interested party along with an unnamed parent of a trans child and so was able to bring the case.

The Tavistock disputed Bell's account of her treatment but this was never looked into by the court as it was irrelevant to the case. I don't think it's particularly helpful to speculate whether she actually detransitioned or how she lives or sees herself now, although she has made some ambiguous comments. She's also been revelaed since the case as a pretty virulent conspiracy theorist and anti-vaxxer who seems to be a big Ye (Kanye West) supporter so she doesn't strike me as someone very credible.

But I don't sere why she should be immune from criticism. She made herself a public figure and lapped up the limelight. She got very close to bringing an end to trans healthcare for young people and that was her publicly stated intention (and not just trans kids btw). She claims tranphobic racist Posie Parker as her inspiration. But gender critical liberals like LBJ have made it clear that it's outrageous that any trans person should object to her in any way.

 

[smokedout]

The whole case as I understood it was that Keira had been damaged by being irreversibly masculinised by the medical treatments that had been administered.

No, whatever might or might not have happened to her it was irrelevant to the case.

 

[8ball]

No, whatever might or might not have happened to her it was irrelevant to the case.

Including her alleged detransition/retransition?
If so, you can take that up with InArduisFouette ..

 

[smokedout]

Including her alleged detransition/retransition?
If so, you can take that up with InArduisFouette ..

Yes, it was a Judicial Review, the treatment she may or may not have received was not discussed in the case at all.

 

[Raheem]

Well then it becomes a matter of definition, doesn't it?

My belief of what a woman is, is a biological woman.

If someone wants to redefine "woman", I'll listen. But I'll take some convincing that it's much different to redefining a tiger as an elephant.

Different species! Quaint.

How would you feel reading this out loud to a trans person, face to face?

 

[InArduisFouette]

Different species! Quaint.

How would you feel reading this out loud to a trans person, face to face?

Effectively Spymaster has , but IRL F2F spymaster is either going to be quiet AF and not dare or would get borderline stabby and end up like the last idiot who tried it on with me, scooting across the floor on his arse

 

[InArduisFouette]

No, whatever might or might not have happened to her it was irrelevant to the case.

but not irrelevant to her credibility as spokeperson for detransitioners, then of course there are all the other deeply problmatic things 'Keira' has expressed before disappearing once no longer the flavour of the month and the receipient of headpats and cookies from Fascists

 

[Spymaster]

Different species! Quaint.

How would you feel reading this out loud to a trans person, face to face?

I can't imagine a situation where I'd need to. I'd try to be as polite as possible and not cause any offence. If I was asked my opinion directly though, I'd give it.

 

[Sweet FA]

Ah, just seen your edit

My views are my views, FA. Obviously I disagree that they're abysmal or harmful, or I wouldn't hold them.

I totally get that there are people here who hate me for them, and I regret that.

The difference is that whilst they despise me; I would stand shoulder to shoulder and shed blood with them to defend their right not to be hurt, bullied, or intimidated. I just don't believe biological men can become women.

I know and appreciate all that Spy; you're a decent bloke (and a massive wanker obviously )

There are probably a few who 'hate' you but tbf, you're telling them they don't exist which is pretty hateful.

I've said this before I think, but most of my experience (that I'm aware of) with trans people is with scared, confused (and strong and angry) young people. Apart from the pretty much constant shit they have to deal with irl, they are as fully plugged into the virtual world as it's possible to be and they see and hear the most disgusting, violent things said about and to them all the time.

The comments/judgments/way this is discussed can sometimes echo that noise. Even here. That's why you get the reaction you do sometimes.

At some point, you might have to accept that what you "believe" might be wrong. Or you might not.

I wasn't going to post again but despite (selfishly) promising myself I'd read enough about Brianna Ghey, my daughter phoned me in tears this morning wanting to talk about the statements made by the family and how brave her dad had been. Reading between the lines, he'd had a difficult time with his daughter's transition and maybe also at some point didn't "believe biological men can become women."

“Without people accusing me of dead naming my child, most of my memories are with my son Brett. Our memories are engraved on my heart. He was funny, cheeky and would pull faces to make me laugh. He was my baby, my only son and his decision to transition was such a brave and confident thing to do. Even though I grieved the son I lost, I was proud to gain another beautiful daughter. Her appearance changed as she blossomed into a lovely young girl, her eyes were the same, she had my eyes when I looked at her. We were forming a new relationship..."

I'm going to bail from posting on the thread as it feels like it's reached the point where the others did.

 

[Spymaster]

I'm going to bail from posting on the thread as it feels like it's reached the point where the others did.

It started at the point where the others reached.

 

[Sweet FA]

And then circled right back.

 

[8ball]

There are probably a few who 'hate' you but tbf, you're telling them they don't exist which is pretty hateful.

Think I missed the bit where Spy did this.

 

[smokedout]

The difference is that whilst they despise me; I would stand shoulder to shoulder and shed blood with them to defend their right not to be hurt, bullied, or intimidated. I just don't believe biological men can become women.

Trans people are being hurt, bullied and intimidated relentlessly at the moment both on and offline and this place is not immune. So what have you done to stand shoulder to shoulder with them other than turn up on this thread and go I know nothing about his really but trans women are men ha ha, sorry haters.

 

[PTK]

oh dear guess what the Basic Sciences Research proves

Gender-affirming hormone therapy induces specific DNA methylation changes in blood - Clinical Epigenetics

Background DNA methylation is an epigenetic mark that is influenced by underlying genetic profile, environment, and ageing. In addition to X-linked DNA methylation, sex-specific methylation patterns are widespread across autosomal chromosomes and can be present from birth or arise over time. In...

clinicalepigeneticsjournal.biomedcentral.com

they do !

Perhaps you can explain this article to those of us unfamiliar with the terminology employed.

 

[Spymaster]

Trans people are being hurt, bullied and intimidated relentlessly at the moment both on and offline and this place is not immune. So what have you done to stand shoulder to shoulder with them other than turn up on this thread and go I know nothing about his really but trans women are men ha ha, sorry haters.

Well I haven't said that either, but on here the bullying goes the other way, as seen when you and your friends joined forces to label loads of brilliant female posters TERFs, and drive them off the boards or into silence for holding perfectly reasonable opinions.

 

[8ball]

Perhaps you can explain this article to those of us unfamiliar with the terminology employed.

 

[iona]

Well then it becomes a matter of definition, doesn't it?

My belief of what a woman is, is a biological woman.

Not trying to do a fighty gotcha here and you obviously aren't obliged to reply to any post if you don't want to, but I am interested in what you think of the points smokedout makes here? (And also I just cba typing out a post saying more or less the same thing when they've already said it )

You are entitled to think that if you choose. But the law disagrees, and it's important kids are given accurate information. And society frequently disagrees. Trans women, depending on how they pass, move through the world as women and are treated as such. So both legally and socially trans women, even without surgery, can be and are in most circumstances regarded as women. If you find that ludicrous that's up to you.

It's a fairly safe bet though that you have met, seen or interacted with a trans women without knowing she was trans and thought of her as a woman yourself. Like most people you probably make a rough assumption of people's sex from their outward physical appearance and gender signifiers. Genitals don't come into it in most social situations.

I probably count as a "biological woman" depending on how you're defining that, but I can't think of many situations aside from a few medical issues where it would be at all helpful or even make any sense to class myself as a woman.

 

[8ball]

I probably count as a "biological woman" depending on how you're defining that, but I can't think of many situations aside from a few medical issues where it would be at all helpful or even make any sense to class myself as a woman.

Out of interest, do you find the signage or terminology problematic on those occasions where you need to access services of that nature?

 

[Spymaster]

Not trying to do a fighty gotcha here and you obviously aren't obliged to reply to any post if you don't want to, but I am interested in what you think of the points smokedout makes here? (And also I just cba typing out a post saying more or less the same thing when they've already said it )


I probably count as a "biological woman" depending on how you're defining that, but I can't think of many situations aside from a few medical issues where it would be at all helpful or even make any sense to class myself as a woman.

Hiya. I'm not sure what Smokedout meant there.

That was their response to me saying I don't believe that biological men with full male genitalia, are women. They then say that the law disagrees with me. I'm not aware of any law that explicitly disagrees with that sentiment, so would need to be shown it to comment.

 

[smokedout]

Hiya. I'm not sure what Smokedout meant there.

That was their response to me saying I don't believe that biological men with full male genitalia, are women. They then say that the law disagrees with me. I'm not aware of any law that explicitly disagrees with that sentiment, so would need to be shown it to comment.

A Gender Recognition Certificate changes someone's legal sex. A diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria is required however surgery is not a necessary condition of being granted one.

 

[PTK]

Does not the NHS ignore the "legal sex" of people on occasion, and aim certain services at people on the basis of their biological sex?

 

[lazythursday]

Well I haven't said that either, but on here the bullying goes the other way, as seen when you and your friends joined forces to label loads of brilliant female posters TERFs, and drive them off the boards or into silence for holding perfectly reasonable opinions.

I used to post on another forum, that also tore itself apart over this issue. Over there, the 'gender critical ' side effectively won and as a result any discussions about trans people take place wholly within that frame of reference. It's been interesting to watch how people who considered themselves 'reasonable' have become increasingly extreme and prejudiced over time without much exposure to the other side of the argument (have watched this plenty in real life too). This is one of the few places to discuss this that isn't completely dominated by those voices.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Perhaps you can explain this article to those of us unfamiliar with the terminology employed.

it'd slmost as though you didn;t read the conclusions

" In summary, our study is the first epigenome-wide analysis of transgender men and transgender women during GAHT, and the observed epigenetic changes in blood warrant further cell-specific functional and molecular profiling. This study advances our understanding of the complex interplay between sex hormones, sex chromosomes, and DNA methylation in the context of immunity. We highlight the need to broaden the field of ‘sex-specific’ immunity beyond cisgender males and cisgender females to include transgender people, as we show that GAHT induces a unique molecular profile. "

the consequences of these findings is that the 'hurr durr chromosomes' types have, once again, been proven to be wrong in that their vastly oversimplified model is not reflected in reality

 

[InArduisFouette]

Does not the NHS ignore the "legal sex" of people on occasion, and aim certain services at people on the basis of their biological sex?

NHS services are based on the sex in your NHS record, there are situations where this can be clinically overriden to get access to the care people need.