8ball
Merr xmas...
The whole case as I understood it was that Keira had been damaged by being irreversibly masculinised by the medical treatments that had been administered.
LGBT in schools vs religious parents
- Thread starter Anton
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The whole case as I understood it was that Keira had been damaged by being irreversibly masculinised by the medical treatments that had been administered.
InArduisFouette
Well-Known Member
treatments she provided informed consent for as an adult and which had nothing at all to do with GIDS
hormonal treatment which apparently she has recommenced rather than feminising hormonal treatment
the judge in the appeal didn;t quite go as far as calling Bell a liar but the original verdict was overturned
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Well then it becomes a matter of definition, doesn't it?
My belief of what a woman is, is a biological woman.
If someone wants to redefine "woman", I'll listen. But I'll take some convincing that it's much different to redefining a tiger as an elephant.
However, Ireland just beat France in the rugby, so I'm well pissed; and will withdraw for the evening.
8ball
Merr xmas...
“Apparently”
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Going after Keira Bell personally like this, with a bunch of unsourced 'apparentlys' is low.
InArduisFouette
Well-Known Member
why given Bell's proven untruths and mis representation caused the cessation of evidence based care for under 18s and continued assaults evidence based for over 18s.
the now overturned verdicat also placed questiosn over the viability of repeorductive and sexual health care for under 18s and even placed questions as to whather it would be legal to treat under 18s for cncer if there wasa clear risk of damage to ther reproductive systems
The Keira Bell case had little to do with Keira Bell. It was a Judicial Review which examined whether under 16s could legally consent to puberty blockers and whether the Tavistock's procedures for establishing consent were adequate (yes and yes as it turned out). As a former patient Bell was considered an interested party along with an unnamed parent of a trans child and so was able to bring the case.
The Tavistock disputed Bell's account of her treatment but this was never looked into by the court as it was irrelevant to the case. I don't think it's particularly helpful to speculate whether she actually detransitioned or how she lives or sees herself now, although she has made some ambiguous comments. She's also been revelaed since the case as a pretty virulent conspiracy theorist and anti-vaxxer who seems to be a big Ye (Kanye West) supporter so she doesn't strike me as someone very credible.
But I don't sere why she should be immune from criticism. She made herself a public figure and lapped up the limelight. She got very close to bringing an end to trans healthcare for young people and that was her publicly stated intention (and not just trans kids btw). She claims tranphobic racist Posie Parker as her inspiration. But gender critical liberals like LBJ have made it clear that it's outrageous that any trans person should object to her in any way.
The Tavistock disputed Bell's account of her treatment but this was never looked into by the court as it was irrelevant to the case. I don't think it's particularly helpful to speculate whether she actually detransitioned or how she lives or sees herself now, although she has made some ambiguous comments. She's also been revelaed since the case as a pretty virulent conspiracy theorist and anti-vaxxer who seems to be a big Ye (Kanye West) supporter so she doesn't strike me as someone very credible.
But I don't sere why she should be immune from criticism. She made herself a public figure and lapped up the limelight. She got very close to bringing an end to trans healthcare for young people and that was her publicly stated intention (and not just trans kids btw). She claims tranphobic racist Posie Parker as her inspiration. But gender critical liberals like LBJ have made it clear that it's outrageous that any trans person should object to her in any way.
No, whatever might or might not have happened to her it was irrelevant to the case.
8ball
Merr xmas...
Including her alleged detransition/retransition?
If so, you can take that up with InArduisFouette ..
Yes, it was a Judicial Review, the treatment she may or may not have received was not discussed in the case at all.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Different species! Quaint.
How would you feel reading this out loud to a trans person, face to face?
InArduisFouette
Well-Known Member
Effectively Spymaster has , but IRL F2F spymaster is either going to be quiet AF and not dare or would get borderline stabby and end up like the last idiot who tried it on with me, scooting across the floor on his arse
InArduisFouette
Well-Known Member
but not irrelevant to her credibility as spokeperson for detransitioners, then of course there are all the other deeply problmatic things 'Keira' has expressed before disappearing once no longer the flavour of the month and the receipient of headpats and cookies from Fascists
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
I can't imagine a situation where I'd need to. I'd try to be as polite as possible and not cause any offence. If I was asked my opinion directly though, I'd give it.
Sweet FA
✪ Three rounds Lord, in my .44 ✪
I know and appreciate all that Spy; you're a decent bloke (and a massive wanker obviouslyAh, just seen your edit
My views are my views, FA. Obviously I disagree that they're abysmal or harmful, or I wouldn't hold them.
I totally get that there are people here who hate me for them, and I regret that.
The difference is that whilst they despise me; I would stand shoulder to shoulder and shed blood with them to defend their right not to be hurt, bullied, or intimidated. I just don't believe biological men can become women.
)There are probably a few who 'hate' you but tbf, you're telling them they don't exist which is pretty hateful.
I've said this before I think, but most of my experience (that I'm aware of) with trans people is with scared, confused (and strong and angry) young people. Apart from the pretty much constant shit they have to deal with irl, they are as fully plugged into the virtual world as it's possible to be and they see and hear the most disgusting, violent things said about and to them all the time.
The comments/judgments/way this is discussed can sometimes echo that noise. Even here. That's why you get the reaction you do sometimes.
At some point, you might have to accept that what you "believe" might be wrong. Or you might not.
I wasn't going to post again but despite (selfishly) promising myself I'd read enough about Brianna Ghey, my daughter phoned me in tears this morning wanting to talk about the statements made by the family and how brave her dad had been. Reading between the lines, he'd had a difficult time with his daughter's transition and maybe also at some point didn't "believe biological men can become women."
“Without people accusing me of dead naming my child, most of my memories are with my son Brett. Our memories are engraved on my heart. He was funny, cheeky and would pull faces to make me laugh. He was my baby, my only son and his decision to transition was such a brave and confident thing to do. Even though I grieved the son I lost, I was proud to gain another beautiful daughter. Her appearance changed as she blossomed into a lovely young girl, her eyes were the same, she had my eyes when I looked at her. We were forming a new relationship..."
I'm going to bail from posting on the thread as it feels like it's reached the point where the others did.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
It started at the point where the others reached.
8ball
Merr xmas...
Think I missed the bit where Spy did this.
Trans people are being hurt, bullied and intimidated relentlessly at the moment both on and offline and this place is not immune. So what have you done to stand shoulder to shoulder with them other than turn up on this thread and go I know nothing about his really but trans women are men ha ha, sorry haters.
PTK
Paul Kegan
Perhaps you can explain this article to those of us unfamiliar with the terminology employed.oh dear guess what the Basic Sciences Research proves
Gender-affirming hormone therapy induces specific DNA methylation changes in blood - Clinical Epigenetics
Background DNA methylation is an epigenetic mark that is influenced by underlying genetic profile, environment, and ageing. In addition to X-linked DNA methylation, sex-specific methylation patterns are widespread across autosomal chromosomes and can be present from birth or arise over time. In...clinicalepigeneticsjournal.biomedcentral.com
they do !
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Well I haven't said that either, but on here the bullying goes the other way, as seen when you and your friends joined forces to label loads of brilliant female posters TERFs, and drive them off the boards or into silence for holding perfectly reasonable opinions.
Not trying to do a fighty gotcha here and you obviously aren't obliged to reply to any post if you don't want to, but I am interested in what you think of the points smokedout makes here? (And also I just cba typing out a post saying more or less the same thing when they've already said it
)I probably count as a "biological woman" depending on how you're defining that, but I can't think of many situations aside from a few medical issues where it would be at all helpful or even make any sense to class myself as a woman.
8ball
Merr xmas...
Out of interest, do you find the signage or terminology problematic on those occasions where you need to access services of that nature?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Not trying to do a fighty gotcha here and you obviously aren't obliged to reply to any post if you don't want to, but I am interested in what you think of the points smokedout makes here? (And also I just cba typing out a post saying more or less the same thing when they've already said it
I probably count as a "biological woman" depending on how you're defining that, but I can't think of many situations aside from a few medical issues where it would be at all helpful or even make any sense to class myself as a woman.
Hiya. I'm not sure what Smokedout meant there.
That was their response to me saying I don't believe that biological men with full male genitalia, are women. They then say that the law disagrees with me. I'm not aware of any law that explicitly disagrees with that sentiment, so would need to be shown it to comment.
A Gender Recognition Certificate changes someone's legal sex. A diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria is required however surgery is not a necessary condition of being granted one.
lazythursday
Averagely-Known Member
I used to post on another forum, that also tore itself apart over this issue. Over there, the 'gender critical ' side effectively won and as a result any discussions about trans people take place wholly within that frame of reference. It's been interesting to watch how people who considered themselves 'reasonable' have become increasingly extreme and prejudiced over time without much exposure to the other side of the argument (have watched this plenty in real life too). This is one of the few places to discuss this that isn't completely dominated by those voices.
InArduisFouette
Well-Known Member
it'd slmost as though you didn;t read the conclusions
" In summary, our study is the first epigenome-wide analysis of transgender men and transgender women during GAHT, and the observed epigenetic changes in blood warrant further cell-specific functional and molecular profiling. This study advances our understanding of the complex interplay between sex hormones, sex chromosomes, and DNA methylation in the context of immunity. We highlight the need to broaden the field of ‘sex-specific’ immunity beyond cisgender males and cisgender females to include transgender people, as we show that GAHT induces a unique molecular profile. "
the consequences of these findings is that the 'hurr durr chromosomes' types have, once again, been proven to be wrong in that their vastly oversimplified model is not reflected in reality
InArduisFouette
Well-Known Member
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