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Make Some Parents Share Their Kids Guilt

Just had a peep at their other posts. If they're trolling, they're playing the long game.

Or, they're naive, uninformed, have picked up prevailing attitudes without thinking, which (coupled with the mentioned head injury) puts them at odds with Urban and any progressive thinking.

Or, they might be a genuine dyed-in-the-wool racist.

Personally I'd be inclined to assume the second option for the time being and give them a fair chance based on that.

HeatherG Whatever the reason, this reactionary racism is bullshit.
 
Just a reminder to us that, in our largely happy corner of the internet, we may not see the full majesty of knuckle-dragging thought that is out there.

Because I'm pretty sure the OP isn't trolling, and actually BELIEVES the nonsense they're vomiting here.
Yeah I've seen some pretty similar shit online. Tbh you can probably trace a line to that from the "kids of today, no respect" etc.. rhetoric that regularly gets trotted out on various local Facebook groups.

Plus, and sorry if this is bit of a derail, after Trump's inauguration, I've noticed more overt racist shit towards asylum seekers etc..
 
To address one of your points - "teaching right from wrong" - that's one of those things that sounds very simple and straightforward, but in reality (as we all know, from our own experience), working out what "right" or "wrong" IS is a difficult enough problem, even for adults, let alone having to make choices between them.
Idiot troll OP aside, I think this is worth exploring.

Some of the differences between right and wrong and how we learn and grasp them are:
  • They are different words (they sound different and have their own spelling)
  • People's faces and voices may be different depending on which one they're refering to
  • People may react to you differently depending on whether they're refering to right or wrong
  • You're not supposed to do wrong things and you are supposed to do right things
  • Sometimes people respond positively to things you have associated with wrong, and vice versa
  • You feel bad because of people's response to you, but you didn't mean anything wrong
  • You feel good when you've done something people have told you is wrong
  • You realise that something you've done had made someone else feel how you do when you feel bad
  • You discover that the things you do may have effects beyond your intentions
  • You understand that there may be long term impacts and consequences to others when you have done wrong
  • You understand what those consequences might be
That's a crude, non-exhaustive list, in an order that's in no way exact. But I'm certain that they don't all happen at once, the minute children are 'taught right from wrong', and that it's not possible for 'good' parents to impart them in some optimal fashion, like they exist in some hermetically sealed bubble of righteousness.

From personal and professional* experience, when we do wrong, it's either an unthinking reaction (to pain), or a considered response to a misunderstanding of a situation or of the result of the action. And I don't think you can lay that on what the parents taught their child (outside, perhaps, of isolated cults/deliberate ideological brainwashing).

*I don't work in child development, but do work with vulnerable adults and young people, and had shit parenting.
 
Idiot troll OP aside, I think this is worth exploring.

Some of the differences between right and wrong and how we learn and grasp them are:
  • They are different words (they sound different and have their own spelling)
  • People's faces and voices may be different depending on which one they're refering to
  • People may react to you differently depending on whether they're refering to right or wrong
  • You're not supposed to do wrong things and you are supposed to do right things
  • Sometimes people respond positively to things you have associated with wrong, and vice versa
  • You feel bad because of people's response to you, but you didn't mean anything wrong
  • You feel good when you've done something people have told you is wrong
  • You realise that something you've done had made someone else feel how you do when you feel bad
  • You discover that the things you do may have effects beyond your intentions
  • You understand that there may be long term impacts and consequences to others when you have done wrong
  • You understand what those consequences might be
That's a crude, non-exhaustive list, in an order that's in no way exact. But I'm certain that they don't all happen at once, the minute children are 'taught right from wrong', and that it's not possible for 'good' parents to impart them in some optimal fashion, like they exist in some hermetically sealed bubble of righteousness.

From personal and professional* experience, when we do wrong, it's either an unthinking reaction (to pain), or a considered response to a misunderstanding of a situation or of the result of the action. And I don't think you can lay that on what the parents taught their child (outside, perhaps, of isolated cults/deliberate ideological brainwashing).

*I don't work in child development, but do work with vulnerable adults and young people, and had shit parenting.
Yes, this 100%.

The problem with populist thinking is that it envisages simple solutions to complex problems. Often, those solutions are exactly what is currently being done, and patently doesn't work, in which case the populist says "Well, do it more! Do it harder! Use a bigger hammer!".

Almost by definition, populist "solutions" seem to be chosen according to the immediate gratification they offer, rather than the likelihood of success in the longer term. And, because politicians and decision-makers are often themselves lured by the likely positive reaction they'll get from populist "solutions", their choices are often informed by them. With the result that the very things they're proposing result in the very outcomes they're now proposing "bigger stick solutions" to fix. Meanwhile, those at the coalface (youth workers, probation workers, even parents) are trying to make things work while their attempts to at least improve the way things are done and achieve better outcomes are lambasted by populists as "woke", "bleeding heart", or similar.

It's enough to make you despair.

ETA: for example, the PREVENT programme. Which I thought was a crock of shit when it showed up, and what it has proven to be. It's a classic example of "big stick" problem solving, yet it patently didn't work here - and not because the stick wasn't big enough, but because the problem needed a better tool to address it than a big stick.
 

Make Some Parents Share Their Kids Guilt​


I’ve only read about various agencies lambasted for not dealing adequately with Axel Rudekabana.

A thread entitled Mass stabbing at Southport Kids’ Club 29/7/24 was created at 3.01 p.m. on 29 July 2024.

To date, you have not posted any messages on it.

Why didn’t both of his parents do more about him.

When they saw how troublesome he was becoming, why didn’t they say ‘enough is enough’, ‘he’s not getting better, he’s getting worse’.

Since his father stopped him from getting into the taxi, he must have known, or guessed what his son intended to do. How closely did they watch him. Didn’t they wonder why he had no friends, why he didn’t do what other young boys of his age did?

I’m 100% sure that the primary fault lays with his parents. They should have sought help and if they didn’t know where to start, they should have started with their GP.

If only they had done that!

The questions that you have now started a new thread to ask were addressed at 3.36 p.m. yesterday.
 
So easy to blame the parents.

I was an utter bastard as young teenager, yes, my parents had taught me right from wrong, and I knew right from wrong, but choosing 'wrong' just added to the buzz.

Ending up in boarding school because of persistent truanting (my last state school attendance figure was 23% for the term) really saved me. I hated it at the time, and am not in contact with anyone from there, but it saved me. Being able to have extra lessons to catch up what I had missed meant that I passed my exams and gave me the option of making something of myself, which I sort of did.

My parents were at their wits end, my father was 37 when I was born, and it was an 'old' 37, more like two generations apart than one.

I do not doubt that Rudekabana's parents did what they could to influence his behaviour, but if the youth simply won't listen, it is hard to see what they could do.
 
I’ve only read about various agencies lambasted for not dealing adequately with Axel Rudekabana.

I saw his father stopping him from getting into a taxi en route to the school he was excluded from - The Range.

Why didn’t both of his parents do more about him. It’s all very well blaming multiple agencies for not doing ‘this’ and not doing ‘that’ but they didn’t create him. They didn’t bring him up. Clearly, like too many parents these days, they didn’t teach him ‘right from wrong’.

When they saw how troublesome he was becoming, why didn’t they say ‘enough is enough’, ‘he’s not getting better, he’s getting worse’.

In their shoes, I would have seriously considered packing him off to Rwanda. Ok, he wasn’t born there, they both were, but clearly, they were living in a place where, due to their skin colour, they stood out a mile. Unfortunately, in this country, people don’t like that. They want you to look like them, think, act and behave like them too.

Since his father stopped him from getting into the taxi, he must have known, or guessed what his son intended to do. How closely did they watch him. Didn’t they wonder why he had no friends, why he didn’t do what other young boys of his age did? Why go to Cardiff, instead of a multi-ethnic place like London, in the first place?

No matter how much people want to blame those agencies across the board for failing him, I’m 100% sure that the primary fault lays with his parents. They should have sought help and if they didn’t know where to start, they should have started with their GP.

If only they had done that!

Your parents must have been a right couple of twats then
 
So easy to blame the parents.

I was an utter bastard as young teenager, yes, my parents had taught me right from wrong, and I knew right from wrong, but choosing 'wrong' just added to the buzz.

Ending up in boarding school because of persistent truanting (my last state school attendance figure was 23% for the term) really saved me. I hated it at the time, and am not in contact with anyone from there, but it saved me. Being able to have extra lessons to catch up what I had missed meant that I passed my exams and gave me the option of making something of myself, which I sort of did.

My parents were at their wits end, my father was 37 when I was born, and it was an 'old' 37, more like two generations apart than one.

I do not doubt that Rudekabana's parents did what they could to influence his behaviour, but if the youth simply won't listen, it is hard to see what they could do.

I never had you down as a teenage rebel. :D
 
I'm always taken back by how bullshit things are when I step outside my various bubbles.

Like, I was at a supper thing the other night and just assumed that (because of who the host was) everyone there would be generally LW. The woman to my right started going on about how young people shouldn’t be allowed to be on benefits, it makes them lazy, they need to get their arse into gear, do the necessaries, pull themselves up yadda yadda. She was the same age as the people she was referring to. Took me a moment to get past my surprise and get a useful conversation going. Five minutes in she was agreeing with me. So obvious she’s hoovered up some kind of sausage-machine generated garbage and assumed it was sensible so adopted it. Five minutes chat with a stranger and she’s going “Yeah, I hadn’t thought about that… Hmmm, that makes sense…” Zero critical thinking, no independent thinking.


(Apropos other chats on here recently, I think my skills at engaging people in productive conversation like this has been improved by following debate on here. Before, I’d have jumped in with the naysaying; now I’m more able to let the flaws in their position become more apparent to them. Thanks Urban.)



The week after the Brexit vote I was told to “go home to your own country” and “You people don’t understand, you’re not from here”, and shunned and stepped around in more subtle ways. Not happened since I was a much younger. It settled down soon after. But recently, outside of Brixton, especially outside of London, I’ve noticed an uptick in the offish stuff. I’m not English and not entirely white, but I was raised and conditioned as white. Generally, once I found my path and my tribe, it’s been very rare that that has been noted or remarked on. But lately there’s been more of the ‘Where are you from, no where are you really from” shit from people I don’t know. They seem emboldened to ask, in a way that feels very retrospective.




HeatherG
These two youngsters I know. One is Black and the other white:

I know a young man, in his early twenties, who is completely out of control and off the rails. A proper troublemaker, aggressive, angry, hopeless, socially isolated because of the way he is. I reckon he’s heading for disaster. His family background is tricky but he was loved and supported, he had hands on and involved care from all the adults around him. He was disciplined and corrected as any child should be. And yet, he’s a fuck up. There are possible reasons for this, nothing that can be changed, despite the love attention and support he’s received.

I know a young woman (mid 20s) who had the most terrible start in life, bad things happened to her, the police were involved, social services, the lot. The things that happened to her were pretty extreme. We all thought we’d lost her, she was gone and off the rails, no way back. But somehow she put herself through school got a good degree, she’s started a business, she’s had plenty of success and accolades, even had magazine articles written about her for her writing and public work, she’s an advocate, she’s politically active, and she’s also paying for her own therapy to deal with the past trauma.

If your mind automatically assumes the “bad” one to be Black, you need to look at your innate prejudices and give your head a wobble.

Also, if you accept without question that there is a good child and a bad child in these examples, or that the parenting was good or bad, you’re coming from a place of prejudice.

If you really hold racist and prejudiced views, you need to at least have some thinking and conviction behind them. Blindly accepting ideas and views that are fed to you isn’t just lazy, it’s dangerous. If you’re truly racist, that’s shit and insupportable. If you’re not, you need to work out how to push back on the conditioning you seem to have internalised.
 
Parents asked for help many times and it wasn't forthcoming, I'm not sure what you expected them to do aside from lock him in the house. He was a ticking time bomb and without the correct psychiatric care someone was going to get hurt eventually. The parents aren't at fault here but I bet they feel guilty anyway. What parent wouldn't?
 
They logged off around the time of post #14, so haven’t seen the rest of the thread. May be experiencing some Poster’s Regret…
Maybe, but seeing as some subsequent posters have given the benefit of doubt, it would be good to hear from them. Otherwise it will appear more like straightforward trolling.
 
I'm always taken back by how bullshit things are when I step outside my various bubbles.

Like, I was at a supper thing the other night and just assumed that (because of who the host was) everyone there would be generally LW. The woman to my right started going on about how young people shouldn’t be allowed to be on benefits, it makes them lazy, they need to get their arse into gear, do the necessaries, pull themselves up yadda yadda. She was the same age as the people she was referring to. Took me a moment to get past my surprise and get a useful conversation going. Five minutes in she was agreeing with me. So obvious she’s hoovered up some kind of sausage-machine generated garbage and assumed it was sensible so adopted it. Five minutes chat with a stranger and she’s going “Yeah, I hadn’t thought about that… Hmmm, that makes sense…” Zero critical thinking, no independent thinking.


(Apropos other chats on here recently, I think my skills at engaging people in productive conversation like this has been improved by following debate on here. Before, I’d have jumped in with the naysaying; now I’m more able to let the flaws in their position become more apparent to them. Thanks Urban.)



The week after the Brexit vote I was told to “go home to your own country” and “You people don’t understand, you’re not from here”, and shunned and stepped around in more subtle ways. Not happened since I was a much younger. It settled down soon after. But recently, outside of Brixton, especially outside of London, I’ve noticed an uptick in the offish stuff. I’m not English and not entirely white, but I was raised and conditioned as white. Generally, once I found my path and my tribe, it’s been very rare that that has been noted or remarked on. But lately there’s been more of the ‘Where are you from, no where are you really from” shit from people I don’t know. They seem emboldened to ask, in a way that feels very retrospective.




HeatherG
These two youngsters I know. One is Black and the other white:

I know a young man, in his early twenties, who is completely out of control and off the rails. A proper troublemaker, aggressive, angry, hopeless, socially isolated because of the way he is. I reckon he’s heading for disaster. His family background is tricky but he was loved and supported, he had hands on and involved care from all the adults around him. He was disciplined and corrected as any child should be. And yet, he’s a fuck up. There are possible reasons for this, nothing that can be changed, despite the love attention and support he’s received.

I know a young woman (mid 20s) who had the most terrible start in life, bad things happened to her, the police were involved, social services, the lot. The things that happened to her were pretty extreme. We all thought we’d lost her, she was gone and off the rails, no way back. But somehow she put herself through school got a good degree, she’s started a business, she’s had plenty of success and accolades, even had magazine articles written about her for her writing and public work, she’s an advocate, she’s politically active, and she’s also paying for her own therapy to deal with the past trauma.

If your mind automatically assumes the “bad” one to be Black, you need to look at your innate prejudices and give your head a wobble.

Also, if you accept without question that there is a good child and a bad child in these examples, or that the parenting was good or bad, you’re coming from a place of prejudice.

If you really hold racist and prejudiced views, you need to at least have some thinking and conviction behind them. Blindly accepting ideas and views that are fed to you isn’t just lazy, it’s dangerous. If you’re truly racist, that’s shit and insupportable. If you’re not, you need to work out how to push back on the conditioning you seem to have internalised.
Another interesting thread with extreme opinions (if true) and also understandable reactions. I could say a lot but would probably put my foot in it, I will once I've gone through it in my head. This caught my eye amongst everything, as soon as you said "one is black and the other white" I knew there would be a bad example and a good example, it would be to see who automatically thinks the bad example is the black person and also for me personally, that either example could be either person.

It is sad that people will think as you've suggested, if they do that autmotically then it's a problem imo. If they do that then even after thinking/realising it could be either than that's a big problem also.
 
He was a week short of turning 18. Still officially a minor, yes, but no longer really a kid. He knew right from wrong, he just chose not to go by it.

Personally, when I was that age (in 2004), I had already left school and home and was renting a room and working full time for nearly two years before that. And all through my own choice because I wanted to be independent, not because anyone made me. I know that's not so easy for school leavers now due to this "must stay in some form of education until your 18th birthday" one-size fits all policy which has existed for the past 10 years, but that's kind of my point. If you're going to blame anyone/anything other than the actual killer and his actions, why not consider that this grim infantilisation of young adults might be contributing? Technically, at the time of his crimes, he was legally old enough to have potentially fathered a child himself, and therefore have the responsibility to teach that hypothetical child "right from wrong". So if the law deems you mature enough to consent to sex and have babies, why not make the age of majority 16 so you can have equal rights across the board (leave school, leave home, work full time, vote and drink) on the understanding that with those adult rights comes adult responsibility, and you can't hide behind "I'm a minor" by calculatedly committing an atrocity a convenient matter of days before hitting the big 1-8.
 
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Regarding the nature of the thread and the OP, I think of it a bit like the Traitors TV show. People say they're 100% sure someone is faithful (genuine in this case) or 100% a traitor (trolling in this case). I accept that it seems very very obvious sometimes when a person is trolling (as 99.9% probably won't be) but I also think it's safer to only assume something 99.9% just in case. I'm sure I could provide examples where I've contradicted myself and thought something 100% also.

I say just in case as it could turn out someone is trolling which is despicable about such a sensitive and emotive subject (then you feel silly for giving them the benefit of the doubt) or if they were genuine - the opposite for being so dismissive. Again, even if it's more likely to turn out someone was trolling, I still think the above is a valid point.

You could almost expand it to feelings of killers, murders and the like as well. The easiest emotional response is to dismiss them and what they've done as well as evil or whatever and they deserve this that or the other (I've undoubtedly done that). Once you expand on that though and I'm not saying it is even wrong, you could start thinking about the reasons behind what they did (including just being evil or any of the 'benefit of the doubt' scenarios) and progress to thinking about the causes and why?

In this case there are many or even the standard of bringing up a child as best you can in life - facets that the child will be exposed to that could influence them. It always starts with the parents and going back to another posters example - a child could be brought up in a loving environment and turn out bad or a broken home and turn out good (or any combination of those). However it doesn't end with the parents imo, you'd hope most would bring up their child in the best possible way (it's heart breaking whenever you hear a case of someone that hasn't, how can you hurt your own child? 😢) but after that start in life they will be exposed to many more things in their young lives.

Apologies for the long post and whether it makes any sense 🤣
 
He was a week short of turning 18. Still officially a minor, yes, but no longer really a kid. He knew right from wrong, he just chose not to go by it.

Personally, when I was that age (in 2004), I had already left school and home and was renting a room and working full time for nearly two years before that. And all through my own choice because I wanted to be independent, not because anyone made me. I know that's not so easy for school leavers now due to this "must stay in some form of education until your 18th birthday" one-size fits all policy which has existed for the past 10 years, but that's kind of my point. If you're going to blame anyone/anything other than the actual killer and his actions, why not consider that this grim infantilisation of young adults might be contributing? Technically, at the time of his crimes, he was legally old enough to have potentially fathered a child himself, and therefore have the responsibility to teach that hypothetical child "right from wrong". So if the law deems you responsible enough to consent to sex and have babies, why not make the age of majority 16 so you can have equal rights across the board (leave school, leave home, work full time, vote and drink) on the understanding that with those adult rights comes adult responsibility, and you can't hide behind "I'm a minor" by calculatedly committing an atrocity a convenient matter of a few days before hitting the big 1-8.
Are you saying he calculatedly committed an atrocity a few days before he turned 18 in order to avoid a whole life sentence, and only get banged up for the next 52 years?

Obviously, I don't know that he didn't. But I rather doubt it. And I'm not sure that it makes much difference.
 
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