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Leytonstone tube station "terrorist incident"?

Anyone see the Channel 4 news interview with the Leytonstone attacker's brother?

He had severe psychiatric problems, had spent three months on a section and his family had desperately asked both the police and social services on multiple occasions for help in the last couple of months. Help was denied due to him allegedly for not being a danger either to himself or others.

Who was it here insisting he wasn't a nutter but a terrorist?
 
Anyone see the Channel 4 news interview with the Leytonstone attacker's brother?

He had severe psychiatric problems, had spent three months on a section and his family had desperately asked both the police and social services on multiple occasions for help in the last couple of months. Help was denied due to him allegedly for not being a danger either to himself or others.

Who was it here insisting he wasn't a nutter but a terrorist?
Nobody was insisting just suggesting maybe wait until there's hard evidence.

Also, nutter? Ffs.
 
Anyone see the Channel 4 news interview with the Leytonstone attacker's brother? He had severe psychiatric problems, had spent three months on a section and his family had desperately asked both the police and social services on multiple occasions for help in the last couple of months. Help was denied due to him allegedly for not being a danger either to himself or others.

Poor fucker. Hope he gets the treatment he should have got before.
 
It'd be very apposite if it turned out that he didn't get proper treatment due to Tory cuts...
 
Anyone see the Channel 4 news interview with the Leytonstone attacker's brother?

He had severe psychiatric problems, had spent three months on a section and his family had desperately asked both the police and social services on multiple occasions for help in the last couple of months. Help was denied due to him allegedly for not being a danger either to himself or others.

Who was it here insisting he wasn't a nutter but a terrorist?

I was saying he was a nutter not a terrorist and he was a cunt. Albeit a sad one. He's fucked now. they'll never let him out.

Most people with mental health issues don't go and try to cut someones head off.
 
I saw some of the news and the family had reported he was mentally unwell with no statement of being a harm to self or others or being a terrorist. Discussed that the family were given advice on how to access appropriate support. I expect we will learn later more about what this was.
 
I think I saw most of the interview. In order to make an application to have someone assessed you have to have the legal grounds for this under the mental health act. It's not just calling up and saying 'I want my brother sectioned' so I'm intrigued as to what conversations took place that missed the risks. It may well have been that he didn't meet the legal criteria at that time.
 
Man thats really shit. I helped in the funeral arrangements for Alan Cartwright the 15 year old riding his bike when another youth jumped out and stabbed him in the heart along the Caledonian Road. Trying to make sense of it was one of the most depressing experiences of my life. A guy that works for me knows the boy that stabbed him, his kids used to go around his house, I got involved and met the parents because somebody else working with me knew the family.

The older I get the harder I find it to take the world seriously, the world seems so fucked up.


Depressing isn't it? Try working in the field. A boy I work with was somewhat boasting to me that he has been stabbed six times in his life and is still alive. To an extent, I guess it is an achievement for him. But he seems to enjoy the excitement of it all. I think its more an inner city mentality than anything.
I refuse to believe this complete lack of respect for lives that many youth seem to be growing up with is the world. I really try not to watch the news/read papers (i'm' aware of this story but I will not watch the video). In saying that, I am leaving my field of work and I really want to leave London and the UK
 
I think the imminent trip to Somalia that his brother had organised will have played a big part in what he did Sat night.

Somalia has one of the highest rates of mental illness in the world and with a healthcare system devastated by years of war, most sufferers receive no medical help. Many are chained up - to trees or at home. Some are even locked in cages with hyenas. But one man is trying to change all that.

Where hyenas are used to treat mental illness - BBC News
 
I've known and/or worked with a fair few families who have decided to send their children 'home' for a better education, or because they were getting involved in bad/risky behaviour. The outcomes often seem to be positive for the yp, and there's no doubt that sending them away can avert all sorts of problems, including school exclusion, educational under-achievement, involvement in risky behaviour, etc. But the fear of separation from their families and what they might experience (in a place that sometimes they haven't even visited/to stay with extended family members they have never met) has led some yp to to run away or seek help from authorities here. If Muhyadin Mire had any idea of how mentally ill people are treated in Somalia, it wouldn't surprise me if he was totally terrified by the thought of being sent out there.
 
Depressing isn't it? Try working in the field. A boy I work with was somewhat boasting to me that he has been stabbed six times in his life and is still alive. To an extent, I guess it is an achievement for him. But he seems to enjoy the excitement of it all. I think its more an inner city mentality than anything.
I refuse to believe this complete lack of respect for lives that many youth seem to be growing up with is the world. I really try not to watch the news/read papers (i'm' aware of this story but I will not watch the video). In saying that, I am leaving my field of work and I really want to leave London and the UK

I go through phases of switching off from watching the news and even coming on these boards because having the doom and gloom shoved in your face everyday is depressing, can only take so much of it.
 
Your suspicion is ill-founded. Read the book I mentioned. The guy's research is thorough, includes psychiatric and physical assessments, and draws on other research. Your contention about mental illness and drug use isn't supported by the mass of evidence gathered about suicide operations.
As for suicide bombings taking place mainly in poor areas, again your contention isn't supported by reality.

Right I've gone through this and I think a lot of what he is claiming on the state of minds of suicide bombers both is flawed and some is old hat.

The mental health issues particularly amongst Islamists and even the Tamil Tigers (that he puts forward as the example of secular people committing suicide) cannot be supported as people who are not suffering some form of mental health problems.

It is widely accepted in the west that anyone that commits suicide is suffering some form of mental health issue be it depression, a clinical condition bi=polar etc or trauma. It is very difficult to get to the background of the suicide bombers mental health well being for a number of reasons. Culturally for starters if you take Islam, to commit suicide is a sin, so conventional suicide is at odds with those battling depression or other mental health issues, their demons are at conflict with religious beliefs, to become a suicide bomber gives them a way out as they then become a 'martyr' and according to their beliefs that will get them to heaven. Committing suicide any other way takes them to hell. It is unlikely they are going to confide to anyone that they feel suicidal because of their religious beliefs. The access to diagnosis and treatment particularly for the poor in Muslim countries is hopeless at best (see somebodies previous post on how the mentally ill are treated in Somalia for example). Suicide in many islamic countries is actually illegal.

There is no way Robert Pape would have access to the background health of all the suicide bombers and even if he did it would not tell the whole story as mental health issues are often hidden, not reported, covered by denial or for fear of shame and ridicule. According to the NHS half of suicide victims in the UK have sought professional help. That means half don't. Are we really saying that 50% of people in the UK are not depressed or traumatised when they are committing suicide? Men in particular are slow or unwilling to get help on all health issues.

You can argue the case for the terminally ill having all their faculties to make a decision of suicide, but lets face it what can be more depressing than being terminally ill?. Well my Grandfather committed suicide at 92, he wasn't terminally ill or suffering any illness, he was depressed at seeing all his friends die is what we eventually figured. For him it was clearly as bad as being terminally ill. he was rational and planned his death. Having a mental health issue does not preclude you from being able to organise your death or from showing outward signs of being happy or 'normal' an argument against Pape stating that the suicide bombers knew what they were doing and went about their business in a normal manner... so did my grandfather in the days up to when he hung himself an event he planned and perversely joked about, when my uncle found some cable hanging from the bannisters a few days before and asked him what they were for. My Grandfather was one of the 50% that didn't seek help before killing himself.

Unless you or we are saying depression is not a mental health issue I cannot agree with Robert Pape and I think whilst he has cleverly put together statistics and made a good study his claims and arguments don't convince me.

The Tamil tigers or the Japanese kamikaze pilots were living in a traumatic world (War must be one of the most traumatic depressing fear arenas to be placed in) this makes you irrational and irresponsible to your own survival, trauma, fear, stress and depression at seeing loved ones die or be oppressed will trigger the decision to place ones life on the line or to take foolhardy risks, including a decision to blow oneself up taking out the object or cause of your trauma/fear/depression. This is when hope goes and with that mans desire to survive.

I have been surrounded by people with mental health issues including my Mother who was sectioned many times having suffered from Schizophrenia, I was the kid with the mad mum. My daughter has Bi-Polar and when having a n episode takes huge risks and has anger issues, she has attempted suicide 4 times so far including one where she was in a coma for 5 days.I live in fear of a bad phone call.

There are many counter arguments to Robert Pape from people within the mental health profession you can see them splashed all over the internet (Pape is also not an expert on mental health). I don't buy into his claims simply because he would not be privy to all the health records of the suicide bombers and even if he did those records do not tell the real or whole stories of the state of mind of those planning to kill others and kill themselves. The vast majority of people living in these areas do not go and seek help for depression in the way that we do here in the west and even then according to the NHS that is only half of suicide victims seeking such help. What percentage of depressed people do you think seek help for mental health issues or depression in Pakistan?

You can use the argument of ideology and conviction etc but many would argue such conviction and belief is an obsession and in itself is a step into an unstable mind. It is a complex issue which Pape acknowledges. His is the conventional argument and it is not new, there are other studies out there, that are debunking some of his claims.

Mental health issues are huge and way more than we know or understand even and are made even more complex by the way we live and try to survive.

The Leytonstone knifer from Somalia was mentally ill, we now know that his family desperately sought medical help. Some posters who shot me down for claiming this, are noticeably quiet by their absence.

So I'll repeat my view now... To be a suicide bomber or shooter/knifer you are mad... of course it depends on how you want to define mad.
 
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Anyone see the Channel 4 news interview with the Leytonstone attacker's brother?

He had severe psychiatric problems, had spent three months on a section and his family had desperately asked both the police and social services on multiple occasions for help in the last couple of months. Help was denied due to him allegedly for not being a danger either to himself or others.

So far as I can see this story is about the state of mental health services in London, due to the cuts.
I know a bit through someone who is an NHS clinical psychiatrist: Every day every mental health ward has to nominate their 'least ill' patent to be released in case of an emergency admission, like this bloke. Every night many severely mentally ill people are held in police cells pending the availability of a bed somewhere in the UK miles from their family.
There are simply no empty NHS mental health beds in London, at all, unless you are so severely ill that they choose who to release for 'care in the community;' to make space for you.
Awful that his family begged for help and got turned away but not unusual at all. We would not have heard about him at all if he had killed himself for instance instead of doing what he did and getting filmed doing it.
 
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Right I've gone through this and I think a lot of what he is claiming on the state of minds of suicide bombers both is flawed and some is old hat.

The mental health issues particularly amongst Islamists and even the Tamil Tigers (that he puts forward as the example of secular people committing suicide) cannot be supported as people who are not suffering some form of mental health problems.

It is widely accepted in the west that anyone that commits suicide is suffering some form of mental health issue be it depression, a clinical condition bi=polar etc or trauma. It is very difficult to get to the background of the suicide bombers mental health well being for a number of reasons. Culturally for starters if you take Islam, to commit suicide is a sin, so conventional suicide is at odds with those battling depression or other mental health issues, their demons are at conflict with religious beliefs, to become a suicide bomber gives them a way out as they then become a 'martyr' and according to their beliefs that will get them to heaven. Committing suicide any other way takes them to hell. It is unlikely they are going to confide to anyone that they feel suicidal because of their religious beliefs. The access to diagnosis and treatment particularly for the poor in Muslim countries is hopeless at best (see somebodies previous post on how the mentally ill are treated in Somalia for example). Suicide in many islamic countries is actually illegal.

There is no way Robert Pape would have access to the background health of all the suicide bombers and even if he did it would not tell the whole story as mental health issues are often hidden, not reported, covered by denial or for fear of shame and ridicule. According to the NHS half of suicide victims in the UK have sought professional help. That means half don't. Are we really saying that 50% of people in the UK are not depressed or traumatised when they are committing suicide? Men in particular are slow or unwilling to get help on all health issues.

You can argue the case for the terminally ill having all their faculties to make a decision of suicide, but lets face it what can be more depressing than being terminally ill?. Well my Grandfather committed suicide at 92, he wasn't terminally ill or suffering any illness, he was depressed at seeing all his friends die is what we eventually figured. For him it was clearly as bad as being terminally ill. he was rational and planned his death. Having a mental health issue does not preclude you from being able to organise your death or from showing outward signs of being happy or 'normal' an argument against Pape stating that the suicide bombers knew what they were doing and went about their business in a normal manner... so did my grandfather in the days up to when he hung himself an event he planned and perversely joked about, when my uncle found some cable hanging from the bannisters a few days before and asked him what they were for. My Grandfather was one of the 50% that didn't seek help before killing himself.

Unless you or we are saying depression is not a mental health issue I cannot agree with Robert Pape and I think whilst he has cleverly put together statistics and made a good study his claims and arguments don't convince me.

The Tamil tigers or the Japanese kamikaze pilots were living in a traumatic world (War must be one of the most traumatic depressing fear arenas to be placed in) this makes you irrational and irresponsible to your own survival, trauma, fear, stress and depression at seeing loved ones die or be oppressed will trigger the decision to place ones life on the line or to take foolhardy risks, including a decision to blow oneself up taking out the object or cause of your trauma/fear/depression. This is when hope goes and with that mans desire to survive.

I have been surrounded by people with mental health issues including my Mother who was sectioned many times having suffered from Schizophrenia, I was the kid with the mad mum. My daughter has Bi-Polar and when having a n episode takes huge risks and has anger issues, she has attempted suicide 4 times so far including one where she was in a coma for 5 days.I live in fear of a bad phone call.

There are many counter arguments to Robert Pape from people within the mental health profession you can see them splashed all over the internet (Pape is also not an expert on mental health). I don't buy into his claims simply because he would not be privy to all the health records of the suicide bombers and even if he did those records do not tell the real or whole stories of the state of mind of those planning to kill others and kill themselves. The vast majority of people living in these areas do not go and seek help for depression in the way that we do here in the west and even then according to the NHS that is only half of suicide victims seeking such help. What percentage of depressed people do you think seek help for mental health issues or depression in Pakistan?

You can use the argument of ideology and conviction etc but many would argue such conviction and belief is an obsession and in itself is a step into an unstable mind. It is a complex issue which Pape acknowledges. His is the conventional argument and it is not new, there are other studies out there, that are debunking some of his claims.

Mental health issues are huge and way more than we know or understand even and are made even more complex by the way we live and try to survive.

The Leytonstone knifer from Somalia was mentally ill, we now know that his family desperately sought medical help. Some posters who shot me down for claiming this, are noticeably quiet by their absence.

So I'll repeat my view now... To be a suicide bomber or shooter/knifer you are mad... of course it depends on how you want to define mad.

Your entire argument is shot through with provisos like "many would argue".
Don't give me those phrases, give me substantive evidence that supports your contentions, like I did for you.
 
So I'll repeat my view now... To be a suicide bomber or shooter/knifer you are mad... of course it depends on how you want to define mad.

I feel a bit rude cutting your post down to this but.. I think there's the problem. I mean it's fine if you want to call them all mad as long as you admit that it doesn't mean much.
Incidentally I read a little bit recently about one of the examples you mention - the Kamikaze pilots in Japan.
There's a book out which contains some of the short (often really beautiful) poems they wrote, a traditional Japanese thing to do before you go off to die. Also interesting to learn was that although they were officially all 'volunteers' (the suicide mission pilots) the consequences for not volunteering could be.. you know, death.
 
I think I saw most of the interview. In order to make an application to have someone assessed you have to have the legal grounds for this under the mental health act. It's not just calling up and saying 'I want my brother sectioned' so I'm intrigued as to what conversations took place that missed the risks. It may well have been that he didn't meet the legal criteria at that time.

I worked with a young man who has long term mental health issues and is pretty much in and out of hospital. There was a period where his health was clearly deteriorating in the community (increased aggression and odd behaviour). We could all see this... but it wasn't until he trashed his room, ripped the door off and chucked it down the stairs of the hostel that he managed to get back into hospital, which is want he wanted.

I think the hope is that when such people are released, as long as they are medicated they can remain docile. Problem is making sure such people take there medication.
 
I feel a bit rude cutting your post down to this but.. I think there's the problem. I mean it's fine if you want to call them all mad as long as you admit that it doesn't mean much.
Incidentally I read a little bit recently about one of the examples you mention - the Kamikaze pilots in Japan.
There's a book out which contains some of the short (often really beautiful) poems they wrote, a traditional Japanese thing to do before you go off to die. Also interesting to learn was that although they were officially all 'volunteers' (the suicide mission pilots) the consequences for not volunteering could be.. you know, death.

Provide me with one rational non mental illness reason as why you would want to die?
 
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