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Letzgo hunting paedos

One of the most stupid comments i've seen anywhere on any subject - you need to read the whole thing to appreciate just how profoundly stupid his comment was - leaping from "I feel for anyone who is wrongly accused" to then justifying the murder of someone who is wrongly accused.

There is a wider point to be made here about the poisonous atmosphere produced by the current approach of almost total secrecy and specialists deciding in a top-down community-involvement free manner that provides these idiots with the context and cover to do these things. This poor bloke was a victim of those decisions (and others of course).
 
butchersapron said:
There is a wider point to be made here about the poisonous atmosphere produced by the current approach of almost total secrecy and specialists deciding in a top-down community-involvement free manner that provides these idiots with the context and cover to do these things. This poor bloke was a victim of those decisions (and others of course).
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I don't understand what the above sentence means; esp. "top-down community-involvement free manner". Simple explanations much appreciated. And no I'm not taking the piss.
 
Athos said:
There are not (and never have been) women who commune with the devil; there are men who seek sex with children.

And to link a dislike of paedophilia to religious zealotry is to liken religious freedom to sexual abuse.
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Er dont talk bollocks... i didnt say that did I? I didn't say there were women who commune with the devil, you did.
There are and were witches. African witch doctors, Shaman etc still exist today. Some witches today classify themselves as white witches
Witchcraft is not mythical there were and still are people who practice witchcraft, it was Christianity that hunted them.

Some nutters seeking to use at times dubious peado entrapment methods as have been highlighted on this thread are conducting their own 'witch hunt'. They may well have their 'successes' but as has been highlighted some pretty nasty entrapment of what are innocent people, it is not the way to do it , is it? Entrapment is shit and dangerous what ever the ultimate goal.

Witch-hunt
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Witch hunt" and "Witch trial" redirect here. For , see Witch hunt (disambiguation) and Witch trial (disambiguation).


Burning of three witches in Baden, Switzerland (1585), by Johann Jakob Wick.
A witch-hunt is a search for witches or evidence of witchcraft, often involving moral panic,[1] or mass hysteria.[2] Before 1750 it was legally sanctioned and involving officialwitchcraft trials. The classical period of witchhunts in Europe and North America falls into the Early Modern period or about 1480 to 1750, spanning the upheavals of theReformation and the Thirty Years' War, resulting in an estimated 40,000 to 60,000 executions.[3]

The last executions of people convicted as witches in Europe took place in the 18th century. In the Kingdom of Great Britain, witchcraft ceased to be an act punishable by law with the Witchcraft Act of 1735. In Germany, sorcery remained punishable by law into the late 18th century. Contemporary witch-hunts have been reported from Sub-Saharan Africa, India and Papua New Guinea. Official legislation against witchcraft is still found in Saudi Arabia and Cameroon. The term "witch-hunt" since the 1930s has also been in use as a metaphor to refer to moral panics in general (frantic persecution of perceived enemies). This usage is especially associated with the Second Red Scare of the 1950s, with the McCarthyist persecution of suspected communists in the United States.
 
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Batboy said:
Er dont talk bollocks... i didnt say that did I? I didn't say there were women who commune with the devil, you did.
There are and were witches. African witch doctors, Shaman etc still exist today. Some witches today classify themselves as white witches
Witchcraft is not mythical there were and still are people who practice witchcraft, it was Christianity that hunted them just as thy did with pagans.

Some nutters seeking to use at times dubious entrapment methods as have been highlighted on this thread are conducting their own 'witch hunt'.

Witch-hunt
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Witch hunt" and "Witch trial" redirect here. For , see Witch hunt (disambiguation) and Witch trial (disambiguation).


Burning of three witches in Baden, Switzerland (1585), by Johann Jakob Wick.
A witch-hunt is a search for witches or evidence of witchcraft, often involving moral panic,[1] or mass hysteria.[2] Before 1750 it was legally sanctioned and involving officialwitchcraft trials. The classical period of witchhunts in Europe and North America falls into the Early Modern period or about 1480 to 1750, spanning the upheavals of theReformation and the Thirty Years' War, resulting in an estimated 40,000 to 60,000 executions.[3]

The last executions of people convicted as witches in Europe took place in the 18th century. In the Kingdom of Great Britain, witchcraft ceased to be an act punishable by law with the Witchcraft Act of 1735. In Germany, sorcery remained punishable by law into the late 18th century. Contemporary witch-hunts have been reported from Sub-Saharan Africa, India and Papua New Guinea. Official legislation against witchcraft is still found in Saudi Arabia and Cameroon. The term "witch-hunt" since the 1930s has also been in use as a metaphor to refer to moral panics in general (frantic persecution of perceived enemies). This usage is especially associated with the Second Red Scare of the 1950s, with the McCarthyist persecution of suspected communists in the United States.
Click to expand...

What point are you trying (and failing) to make? The religious freedom to practice witchcraft is somehow analogous to the freedom to have sex with children?
 
Athos said:
What point are you trying (and failing) to make? The religious freedom to practice witchcraft is somehow analogous to the freedom to have sex with children?
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The point I am making is that these particular peadophile hunters are clearly self promoting do-gooder vigilantes using dubious means of entrapment just as the religious zealots did with 'Witches', it's a pretty connection clear really, don't be a dumbass.

I don't necessarily agree with witchcraft, I certainly don't agree with sex with children and I equally don't agree with entrapment under any circumstances. You picked a bun fight not me!

I
 
seventh bullet said:
Tesak is a rich boy bully and scumbag.

That blog post repeats the anti-working class rubbish about the Gwent paediatrician.
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not really there is no mention of the class of the readership of the News of the World or speculation about the class of the people who daubbed the Gwent paediatricians house with paint thus depriving the working class children of gwent of the services of a child specialist and causing unnecessary disruption to their care.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/901723.stm
 
Batboy said:
The point I am making is that these particular peadophile hunters are clearly self promoting do-gooder vigilantes using dubious means of entrapment just as the religious zealots did with 'Witches', it's a pretty connection clear really, don't be a dumbass.

I don't necessarily agree with witchcraft, I certainly don't agree with sex with children and I equally don't agree with entrapment under any circumstances. You picked a bun fight not me!

I
Click to expand...

I never picked a fight.

I said from the outset that I don't agree with their tactics.

But your witch analogy doesn't hold up. The practice of witchcraft is an expression of religious freedom; noncing isn't. And, as far as I know, entrapment wasn't a favoured technique of witch-hunters.

And I'm not inclined to feel too sorry for those who are entrapped. If a child encouraged you to meet them for sex, would you? It's a trap that only a certain kind of person would fall into.
 
Athos said:
I never picked a fight.

I said from the outset that I don't agree with their tactics.

But your witch analogy doesn't hold up. The practice of witchcraft is an expression of religious freedom; noncing isn't. And, as far as I know, entrapment wasn't a favoured technique of witch-hunters.

And I'm not inclined to feel too sorry for those who are entrapped. If a child encouraged you to meet them for sex, would you? It's a trap that only a certain kind of person would fall into.
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Wrong on three counts:

1) Entrapment at any level is wrong, it's what it can lead to (Colin Stag anyone?)

2) My 'analogy' was nothing to do with the freedom of the practising of witchcraft v that of child sex. Read my posts I can't be arsed to explain again.

3) 'witches were often 'trapped' by hunters who first accused them of the sin and then used dubious methods to get confessions from them.

Whatever way you want to paint it the common link is 'vigilantism'. There I was arsed, hopefully that was clearer!
 
FNG said:
not really there is no mention of the class of the readership of the News of the World or speculation about the class of the people who daubbed the Gwent paediatricians house with paint thus depriving the working class children of gwent of the services of a child specialist and causing unnecessary disruption to their care.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/901723.stm
Click to expand...

That story's been distorted a fair bit over the years.



http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/wire/8897

Ten years on it is time the strange tale of the paediatrician confused with a paedophile was finally put to bed, says Brendan O'Neill, who reported on the orginal story for the BBC
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Ten years ago this month, persons unknown – probably teenage scallies, according to local police – daubed the word 'Paedo' on the home of a paediatrician in Gwent in south Wales.

They could never have known that their daft antics would become one of the most hotly discussed, frequently revisited, distorted and mythologised crimes of modern times.

It was 28 August in the year 2000. Yvette Cloete, a 30-year-old South African working as a trainee paediatrician in Gwent, returned home to find the word 'Paedo' painted on her front door.

She was upset, naturally. She informed the police and later decided to move, to try to find 'somewhere more upmarket to live", she told the BBC. She gave a couple of media interviews in which she presumed that the grafitti artists had confused the word 'paediatrician' with 'paedophile' and described herself as a 'victim of ignorance".

The local police never caught the culprits, but when I interviewed Gwent Chief Inspector Andrew Adams, who was central to the case, for the BBC in 2006, he told me 'youngsters'probably did it – 'someone in the 12-17 age bracket. There was no big mob", he said. And that was it.

'Stupid kids in Gwent do something stupid.' Unpleasant for Ms Cloete, undoubtedly, but a tiny crime in the scheme of things.

And yet over the past decade, what ought to have been a footnote in the history of Welsh misdemeanours has been turned into such a constant cultural reference point, has been injected with so much phoney meaning, that it has become distended beyond recognition. It has been transformed by opinion-formers into proof that some communities are so dumb, morally bereft and easily swayed by paedophile-baiting tabloids like the News of the World that they end up confusing a good woman who helps children with evil men who rape them.

The 10-year-old, thoughtless actions of one, two, maybe a handful of teens are unfairly used to indict entire swathes of Britain. As is frequently the case when relatively minor events are turned into massive morality tales, the facts of what happened 10 years ago are continually twisted. It's very rare to read an accurate account.

The Evening Standard in April this year, in a piece about the overblown paedophile panic, said: 'There has been a spate of attacks by dumb-headed vigilantes on paediatricians in the mistaken belief they are paedophiles.'mA spate? Melanie Phillips has made the same mistake. In a piece about anti-paedophile hysteria in the Daily Mail in December 2001, she asked: 'Who can forget the targeting of an innocent children's doctor in Portsmouth by a populace too ignorant and enraged to recognise the difference between paedophile and paediatrician?"

Well, it's hard to forget something that never happened. There was no attack on a paediatrician in Portsmouth. As is frequently the case when relatively minor events are turned into massive morality tales, the facts of what happened 10 years ago are continually twisted – in Gwent, people! – it was not carried out by the 'populace' but probably by a small group of teenagers.

Portsmouth pops up again and again in the harping back to the Great Paedo Graffiti Crime of feverish millennial Britain. In the Independent in 2002, filmmaker Roger Graef wrote of the 'Portsmouth estate'where a 'paediatrician [was] attacked by shouting crowds of mothers and children'– managing to get not only the place wrong, but also the details of what occurred in 2000: there were no 'shouting crowds' in Gwent, there was no 'attack', at least not against the person, and no mothers with their children were involved.

The reason Portsmouth is fingered as the place where people are so thick that they shout at/throw stones at/beat up paediatricians (take your pick from these fantasy scenarios) is because in the year 2000 there were some noisy anti-paedophile protests by mothers in Portsmouth, and these did coincide with a NoW campaign to have sex offenders 'named and shamed'. And in the caliginous commentariat imagination, these protests have become intertwined with a minor graffiti incident that occurred hundreds of miles away, giving rise to a totally made-up story about gangs of mums, kids and vigilantes, their fingers still stained with the ink of the News of the World, gathering with torches and twisted intentions outside the home of a paediatrician.

Even esteemed BBC world affairs editor John Simpson has fallen into the trap. 'What kind of newspaper is the News of the World encouraging people to go out on the streets and beat up paedophiles and then they end up beating up a paediatrician?' he asked in 2006.

In 2003, a newspaper in Northern Ireland said: 'Portsmouth became famous when paedophile-hunting locals chased a paediatrician down the street."

The Irish Independent has claimed that in the 'summer of 2001' (actually it was 2000) a 'couple of newspapers so fuelled the mob' (actually there was no mob in Gwent) 'that a paediatrician was burned out of her home in Gwent' (actually she wasn't).

The truth is that Ms Cloete was not even at home when the youngsters wrote that five-letter word on her door.

There is a censorious instinct at play here: what some observers are explicitly saying is that we can't have an open, potentially heated discussion about paedophilia, child-sex crimes, Jon Venables, Sarah's Law (which is back in the news), or anything else child-related and controversial, because some people might fly off the handle and burn down the house of the nearest paediatrician. But the anti-mob crusaders have simply replaced one prejudice with another – where some tabloid readers see paedophiles everywhere, some broadsheet readers see dictionary-deprived, flame-wielding, underclass lunatics everywhere. Both outlooks are based on prejudice rather than fact.

Ten years on, isn't it time we put the paedo-paediatrician morality tale to bed?
Click to expand...
 
Batboy said:
Wrong on three counts:

1) Entrapment at any level is wrong, it's what it can lead to (Colin Stag anyone?)

2) My 'analogy' was nothing to do with the freedom of the practising of witchcraft v that of child sex. Read my posts I can't be arsed to explain again.

3) 'witches were often 'trapped' by hunters who first accused them of the sin and then used dubious methods to get confessions from them.

Whatever way you want to paint it the common link is 'vigilantism'. There I was arsed, hopefully that was clearer!
Click to expand...

You're stretching the definition of entrapment to fit your tortured analogy with witch-hunters.

And I'm interested in your absolutist stance to what you call entrapment. Posing as children online to out paedophiles is something the police do too.

Furthermore, vigilantism isn't the common link; 'witches' were often persecuted (and executed) under the auspices of the law e.g. Witchcraft Act 1542.
 
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Batboy said:
3) 'witches were often 'trapped' by hunters who first accused them of the sin and then used dubious methods to get confessions from them.

Whatever way you want to paint it the common link is 'vigilantism'. There I was arsed, hopefully that was clearer!
Click to expand...

[/quote]


Witches were generally hunted under the guidebook of Malleus Malificarum which outlined the 'dubious methods' in detail. I.E outright torture

Nobody is following a Malleus Malifanonceum and torturing confessions out of nonces
 
Frances Lengel said:
That story's been distorted a fair bit over the years.



http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/wire/8897
Click to expand...


If you compare the above article and its mention of hysteria you will also see the parallel with the wiki article I posted highlighting the historical 'mass hysteria' and 'moral panic' over witches.

I abhor entrapment and vigilantism as much as I abhor peadophiles, they all hurt people.

The Sun pursued Colin Stag for years convinced he was Rachel Nickels rapist and murderer, they were vigilantes with huge power. I was amazed Stag was never murdered himself. The Stag story is another parallel with the peadophile hunters as they both used 'honey trap' methods. Wholly wrong.
 


Witches were generally hunted under the guidebook of Malleus Malificarum which outlined the 'dubious methods' in detail. I.E outright torture

Nobody is following a Malleus Malifanonceum and torturing confessions out of nonces[/quote]

The common link is vigilantism. Whatever the methods.
 
not untill you establish how religiously sanctioned and socially accepted persecution of hedge witches and cunning men relates to people getting the vigilante game on about child abusers
 
Athos said:
No, it isn't. As I've explained, the persecution of witches was often within the law, and enforced by the 'proper' bodies, not by vigilantes.
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With all due respect you're being a bit of a dick. "Witch hunt" - It's a figure of speech. Meanwhile your making excuses for some glory-hunting bully boys. Still, at least they're glory hunting bully boys who are doing their glory hunting and bullying independently of the state.
 
Frances Lengel said:
With all due respect you're being a bit of a dick. "Witch hunt" - It's a figure of speech. Meanwhile your making excuses for some glory-hunting bully boys. Still, at least they're glory hunting bully boys who are doing their glory hunting and bullying independently of the state.
Click to expand...

Batboy isn't using it in the idiomatic sense, though. He's talking about the persecution of witches.

And I'm not excusing what they do; I've said I don't agree with their methods a number of times.
 
Athos said:
No, it isn't. As I've explained, the persecution of witches was often within the law, and enforced by the 'proper' bodies, not by vigilantes.
Click to expand...

Oh FFS , can you imagine what the law and proper bodies werelike 500 years ago? They were all fucking vigilantes! Dixon of Dock Green was 450 years later.

Have a fucking bun back I don't want it, Im fat enough as it is!
 
Batboy said:
Oh FFS , can you imagine what the law and proper bodies werelike 500 years ago? They were all fucking vigilantes! Dixon of Dock Green was 450 years later.

Have a fucking bun back I don't want it, Im fat enough as it is!
Click to expand...

Ok.

Enjoy the football.

But there is an interesting question here about the difference between vigilantes and the 'proper' bodies.
 
Batboy said:
If you compare the above article and its mention of hysteria you will also see the parallel with the wiki article I posted highlighting the historical 'mass hysteria' and 'moral panic' over witches.

I abhor entrapment and vigilantism as much as I abhor peadophiles, they all hurt people.

The Sun pursued Colin Stag for years convinced he was Rachel Nickels rapist and murderer, they were vigilantes with huge power. I was amazed Stag was never murdered himself. The Stag story is another parallel with the peadophile hunters as they both used 'honey trap' methods. Wholly wrong.
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To be anally correct, it was the Met who set up the very bizarre honeytrap. The copper involved sued for and got £125,000 in 'damages' - Nickell's son only got £22,000 compo. Priorities,eh?
 
Paulie said:
Vigilantes are just violent nutters with a twisted sense of social purpose? Bit like Dexter. Proper bodies have to find culprits AND the evidence to convict?
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I think think it's a bit more nuanced than that, to be honest.

Apart from anything else, these groups of hunters don't fit within your definition: first, they're not using violence; and, secondly, they ave, on occasion, provided evidence to secure a conviction.
 
Athos said:
I think think it's a bit more nuanced than that, to be honest.

Apart from anything else, these groups of hunters don't fit within your definition: first, they're not using violence; and, secondly, they ave, on occasion, provided evidence to secure a conviction.
Click to expand...

Putting footage of the "nonces" they've uncovered into the public domain via youtube more or less amounts to outsourcing the violence to whichever local hotheads see the vid and decide to act on it.
 
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