Junior doctors strike back on

[LeslieB]

You seem to be feeling quite sorry for yourself there. Which might be part of the problem.

Yes it might. And since I still appear to be here, can I just say I think Pickmans and Butchers are the last ones who can talk.

Luckily I've got about a quarter of a million better things to do with my time, but if I didn't I suspect I'd find one or two things in their 250,000 combined posts they would be happier to forget.

I'd be the first to admit I can be an idiot on occasion, but you pair have had your moments too.....

 

[bimble]

This Hunt "interview" (/ press release) in the Guardian this morning, it's so cosy you could almost miss the Behold the Great Statesman side of it.
Not a critical question in sight .
Jeremy Hunt on the NHS: 'I think this decade needs to see the quality revolution'

 

[LeslieB]

To be fair, the Guardian aren't exactly full of pieces portraying Tories in a sympathetic light. This is the problem when you replace a printed newspaper with online. This piece is probably in the middle of a flurry of pro junior doctors pieces but you wouldn't know that.

 

[bimble]

Drinks event with Jeremy Hunt cancelled after junior doctors bought tickets

So..this is what happened next apparently, after they twigged that some doctors had bought tickets to that thing: It wasn't exactly cancelled it was quietly moved to another location.
Tory activists prevent doctors from attending event with Jeremy Hunt

 

[stethoscope]

To be fair, the Guardian aren't exactly full of pieces portraying Tories in a sympathetic light. This is the problem when you replace a printed newspaper with online. This piece is probably in the middle of a flurry of pro junior doctors pieces but you wouldn't know that.

Here's a nice puff piece for Jeremy this morning.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Sure. I don't agree with any one party about everything.

My political views are a mish mash of Labour, Tory and 'kip...., is that a bad thing?

I don't have a problem with you picking and choosing policies and positions from different parties.

It does grate when you contradict yourself and refuse to engage with evidence /arguments presented to you.

Its the incoherence and seemingly willful avoidance that gives you such a troll like appearance and I guess is why you've been put on ignore; not because of any disagreement.

Louis MacNeice

 

[Sasaferrato]

I'm home, so not posting one tedious letter at a time on my tablet.

Let me make my position regarding this odious and unnecessary strike crystal clear.

I wanted to be a doctor, however, I didn't want it enough to work hard enough at school to get the required Highers, so I became a nurse instead.

Medicine or nursing is a calling, or should be. It is not just a 'job', it is much more than that. I did not become a nurse to make money, I became a nurse to help people, and considered it a huge privilege to be able to do so.

As a nurse, I knew things about people that their wives/husbands didn't know, people trusted me to maintain absolute confidentiality, and did so automatically. It was a hugely responsible occupation, get it wrong and someone is injured or dead. Your patients trust you to act competently, especially in knowing your own limitations, and get them more skilled help when required. It is an occupation, especially in ICU, where you have to be on the top of your game every day. I loved it, and sometimes regret that I was seduced away by pharmacy. (Pharmacy also requires you to be on the top of your game, especially as you are saving the arses of junior doctors on a regular basis, with regard to dosages and interactions.)

Having looked at the contract on offer, it is reasonable. There are many people in the country who receive no financial enhancement for working weekends, and on that basis the contract is fair. The pay increase of 13% is 13 times what I got this year and last (the previous 3 years there was no increase at all.), and does compensate for the lost Saturday enhancement.

As I said at the top, medicine is a calling. If it isn't, then you are in the wrong job. As in nursing now, I feel that people are entering the medical profession for the wrong reasons. The work is hard and long, if you are not prepared to accept that, go and do something else. There are times when things go really wrong, and you work way beyond your shift end, you don't go until things are stable. It is an intrinsic part of the work, and yo do not expect payment for it.

Bring medicine and nursing into being 'just a job' at your own risk, and hell mend you when the surgeon doing your open heart surgery, looks at the clock and says 'right, that's 5pm, I'm off'.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Ha! "hundreds". This year (Aug 15 to Aug 16) I'm currently on £2500. And we are in February!

Which of course you can reclaim on your Tax Return. Mandatory fees for registration to a professional body are 100% reclaimable.

 

[Guineveretoo]

Not one doctor will get a 13% pay rise!

I don't know which paper you read, but you need to stop believing what you have read.

As you know, junior doctors already work weekends. There are currently safeguards in place, including financial penalties, to stop their hospitals from making them work too many hours. Those safeguards are removed in the new contract.

 

[existentialist]

You see, Sass, I don't see the doctors making this "just a job".

But, in his studied disregard for the professionalism and commitment of these essential people, it seems to me as if Jeremy Hunt - who, it should be noted, has not met with a single doctor in connection with this contract change - is doing exactly that: to him, these motivated, highly-skilled, and professional people are no different from the zero-hours wageslaves working in Poundland or assembling sandwiches in some windowless shed on a Corby industrial estate.

 

[Guineveretoo]

And to a large extent, the details are irrelevant, because the main issue here is the employer/government refused to negotiate and, when the union would not give in on every single aspect tabled, they imposed the contract.

The implication of this is huge and wide-ranging, and will affect other health professionals and staff and union members across the whole public sector.

 

[Guineveretoo]

I have never met a junior doctor who is just in it for the money. They would be an odd person if they were, in view of the amount of work involved, and debt accrued, even before they become junior doctors!

And I have met a lot of junior doctors.

 

[existentialist]

Which of course you can reclaim on your Tax Return. Mandatory fees for registration to a professional body are 100% reclaimable.

That only means you effectively don't pay tax on the money you used to pay the registration fees - you're still paying out a lot of money from your own pocket in order to be able to practice.

 

[two sheds]

Hunt stresses that the new contract will be cost neutral. Instead of 5-day cover there will be 7-day cover. How is that a 13% pay rise, Sass?

Sasaferrato

 

[Lord Camomile]

There are many people in the country who receive no financial enhancement for working weekends, and on that basis the contract is fair.

Please excuse the slight flippancy, but to me that reads as "based on the unfairness of everyone else's working conditions, the contract is fair".

Medicine or nursing is a calling, or should be. It is not just a 'job', it is much more than that. I did not become a nurse to make money, I became a nurse to help people, and considered it a huge privilege to be able to do so.

Aside from the fact these two points undermine each other slightly (if it's "not just a job" then how can you compare it to other jobs?), I think many are acutely aware that medicine is more than just a way to pay your bills. But, it doesn't follow from that that a career in medicine shouldn't also allow you to pay your bills, and comfortably. As you and many others have said, medical practitioners bear a far greater responsibility than most 'normal jobs', and most of us would rather they were in the best condition they could be, not tired, or distracted by other concerns.

The idea that you either get paid a decent wage or you do it "for the calling" is pretty bogus imho.

 

[BigTom]

I'm home, so not posting one tedious letter at a time on my tablet.

Let me make my position regarding this odious and unnecessary strike crystal clear.

I wanted to be a doctor, however, I didn't want it enough to work hard enough at school to get the required Highers, so I became a nurse instead.

Medicine or nursing is a calling, or should be. It is not just a 'job', it is much more than that. I did not become a nurse to make money, I became a nurse to help people, and considered it a huge privilege to be able to do so.

As a nurse, I knew things about people that their wives/husbands didn't know, people trusted me to maintain absolute confidentiality, and did so automatically. It was a hugely responsible occupation, get it wrong and someone is injured or dead. Your patients trust you to act competently, especially in knowing your own limitations, and get them more skilled help when required. It is an occupation, especially in ICU, where you have to be on the top of your game every day. I loved it, and sometimes regret that I was seduced away by pharmacy. (Pharmacy also requires you to be on the top of your game, especially as you are saving the arses of junior doctors on a regular basis, with regard to dosages and interactions.)

Having looked at the contract on offer, it is reasonable. There are many people in the country who receive no financial enhancement for working weekends, and on that basis the contract is fair. The pay increase of 13% is 13 times what I got this year and last (the previous 3 years there was no increase at all.), and does compensate for the lost Saturday enhancement.

As I said at the top, medicine is a calling. If it isn't, then you are in the wrong job. As in nursing now, I feel that people are entering the medical profession for the wrong reasons. The work is hard and long, if you are not prepared to accept that, go and do something else. There are times when things go really wrong, and you work way beyond your shift end, you don't go until things are stable. It is an intrinsic part of the work, and yo do not expect payment for it.

Bring medicine and nursing into being 'just a job' at your own risk, and hell mend you when the surgeon doing your open heart surgery, looks at the clock and says 'right, that's 5pm, I'm off'.

If it were up to you, between 75% and 98% of junior doctors in the NHS wouldn't be there and you wouldn't have a surgeon at all.

Seriously, the people who are best placed to understand how this pay changes will work out and what the effect will be on the NHS and patient care of the changes in conditions and extended weekend working are the people who actually currently work in the NHS. Having never worked in medicine, let alone the NHS, I will bow to the decision of what is as close to unanimity as possible of the doctors. Your military experience as a nurse doesn't give you a better standing than virtually every single junior doctor in the NHS to say whether it is fair or not and I think you should do the same - because the outcome of your position as stated is what I said in my first sentence.

 

[nino_savatte]

Medicine or nursing is a calling, or should be. It is not just a 'job', it is much more than that. I did not become a nurse to make money, I became a nurse to help people, and considered it a huge privilege to be able to do so.

And so you put medics on a par with the parish priest or the nun. Fascinating.

What you seem to be suggesting is that medical staff (in this case junior doctors) should be glad to work for peanuts.

Having looked at the contract on offer, it is reasonable.

Oh? How so? Are you now an expert in contract law?

As I said at the top, medicine is a calling. If it isn't, then you are in the wrong job. As in nursing now, I feel that people are entering the medical profession for the wrong reasons. The work is hard and long, if you are not prepared to accept that, go and do something else. There are times when things go really wrong, and you work way beyond your shift end, you don't go until things are stable. It is an intrinsic part of the work, and yo do not expect payment for it.

And what are these "wrong reasons" pray tell? Again, you seem to be suggesting that people (in this case junior doctors) should be glad to work for nothing.

 

[Teaboy]

I'm having a few mixed feelings on this strike that perhaps urban can help reconcile for me.

On the one hand I have the natural inclination to support workers who are looking to defend rights and naturally if they choose to withdraw labour then that is their right and they should be supported. Plus, of course, they're Doctors - who doesn't like Doctors? They save lives, right?

Then on the other hand I start wondering who these people actually are and that picture of Gove on the NUJ picket line springs to mind. We all know what background the vast majority of Doctors come from, the sort of people who have propped up the Tories and Lib Dems for years, is that right? Yup they're all for solidarity now but soon as they get into that voting booth what solidarity will they show?

Maybe I'm tainted because I've had the misfortune to have two local MP's (lib dem and tory) who are Doctors. My local tory MP is a doctor and a complete shit bag. Someone who sees no contradiction in volunteering as a doctor in war zones and then marching into the commons and voting for air strikes. She sees no contradiction in spending her professional life trying to help sick people but then actively supports austerity, ATOS assessments, dismantling of the NHS etc etc.

I know any profession is going to be a broad church but I do wonder about the people we are supporting here.

 

[Sprocket.]

Teaboy, I fully understand the feelings of supporting the junior doctors you are having. There is that deep rooted feeling still, especially where I live in South Yorkshire that where were the doctors on the picket lines during the miners strike and the steel strikes. There will always be the division, exploited by the media, that the doctors are pretty well off, some from very privileged backgrounds.
But my belief on this particular case is that this is another move to cause the NHS to fail, thus allowing private finance to be introduced and take over. The staff at the NHS, the cleaners, porters and maintenance staff have in a lot of trusts been edged out and now work for private, multinational service providers.
We should have fought tooth and nail as a furious gathering of citizens to stop all the PFI palaver and it's continuance for the last thirty years.
The NHS along with vast sections of the welfare state have been dismantled by stealth, this could be one of the last opportunities to make a stand. It is our NHS built and financed by us. We should have a service that is a beacon to the world, good health care must be a human right.
The attack on the doctors, whether they have the good manners to remember our support or not, should be a line in the sand.

 

[Guineveretoo]

Actually, doctors, like the rest of the population, are made of people from many different backgrounds, politically and culturally.

I know quite a few, through my father, who are Tories, but I know many, many more who are not from privileged backgrounds, and who are most certainly lefties.

One of my very best friends, who was with me at Greenham Common in the 1980s, is now a hospital doctor (she is about to emigrate to New Zealand, though, so probably not a good idea of one who is prepared to keep fighting, but still...), and I know many, many more, professionally and personally, who have shown support and solidarity to other workers, and been on anti-austerity and ant-war marches etc. etc.

 

[two sheds]

Hunt stresses that the new contract will be cost neutral. Instead of 5-day cover there will be 7-day cover. How is that a 13% pay rise, Sass?

Sasaferrato

This was the reason you described the doctors as 'scum' Sas, so it would be nice if you could explain.

 

[Greasy Boiler]

The basic rate rise is only a small part of the picture though. Remember, this 7 day a week thing was billed from the get go as "cost neutral" - there's no extra money paying for it so there's inevitably going to be winners and losers.

This new contract completely changes the way in which junior doctors are paid for out-of-hours work. Up until now a doctor that regularly worked unsociable hours would receive an additional 'banding' on top of their basic pay (up to 40% ) to make up for it. This new contract basically does away with this and instead pays a smaller premium per anti sociable hour worked, hours that have at the same time been substantially reduced. Then there are the changes to pay progression, removal of gp training supplement etc, etc...

The problem of over-worked, over-stressed junior doctors on chaotic rotas was the very reason why the banding system was introduced in the first place. It was successful but now its being thrown away all in the name of for a last-minute election gimmick of questionable utility* by people who probably deep down would far prefer a 0-day a week NHS.

*BMJ Careers - Seven day NHS would not be cost effective use of resources, researchers say

 

[teqniq]

Looks like they're not backing down, not that I really expected them to.

Escalating junior doctors' strikes may include 'first ever full walkout'

Doctors' unions are planning a series of "escalating" strikes over controversial plans to impose a new contract on junior doctors

The junior doctors committee of the British Medical Association (BMA) intends to inform the NHS of a string of strikes, which would likely include the first ever full walkout by junior doctors if previous strike action fails...

 

[Whagwan]

They've just announce three 48hr strikes and a judicial review into having the contracts imposed on them.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Link - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...industrial-action-new-contracts-a6891466.html

 

[Lord Camomile]

The three strikes in March and April will each last 48 hours, although emergency cover will be provided:

• Wednesday 9 March from 8am
• Wednesday 6 April from 8am
• Tuesday 26 April from 8am

 

[Lord Camomile]

I'm organising a screening of Pride in April and I'm starting to think this will be a good theme for a Q&A afterwards - how we should all be supporting each others' fights, not just tackling our own disputes. For example, I'm going to look into how my union can support the junior doctors.

This is slated for 27th April.

Could be interesting...!

 

[bimble]

I wonder what will happen with this judicial review, which is apparently based on the idea that there was no 'Equality Impact Assessmnet' before the decision was made to force doctors to sign the new contracts ?
BMA — Junior Doctors: Fight Against Imposition Begins | British Medical Association

 

[redsquirrel]

They've just announce three 48hr strikes and a judicial review into having the contracts imposed on them.

Good, best of luck to them.

 

[existentialist]

I wonder what will happen with this judicial review, which is apparently based on the idea that there was no 'Equality Impact Assessmnet' before the decision was made to force doctors to sign the new contracts ?
BMA — Junior Doctors: Fight Against Imposition Begins | British Medical Association

If nothing else, I think it is a very sound tactical move of theirs: it rather gives the lie to the inevitable "they're all militants, just striking for the shits'n'giggles, oh, and the Marxism, obvs" propaganda that will get trotted out. People striking for fun or the overthrow of the Establishment don't generally invoke the Establishment in support of their actions.

I just hope the Establishment delivers...which is by no means a certainty, though I imagine that by now even the judiciary are beginning to get a little tired of Call Me Dave's riding roughshod over the Established Customs of the Land as and when it suits him.