How much do you think doctors should get paid?

[bellaozzydog]

Broadening it out a bit. Not a troll,

Scarcity in a market is supposed to increase value. Why is the U.K. not training more doctors?
Do doctors, if not at an individual level, but an organisational level, understand this and protect/promote the scarcity of Doctors?

It’s probably a mistake to label all Doctors as altruistically driven angels. Nye Bevan had to “stuff their mouths with gold” to get the NHS off the start line

 

[not henry]

Take the wealth that is lying about in banks for years and doing no good, add it to the wealth of the royal family then have a good look round for any other millions lying in banks. Then use the money to pay for people who run such essential services.
Why should people be able to squirrel billions away when basic rights are being cut to the bone and people are going hungry lonely and in pain.
Seize the fucking wealth and use it for good

 

[Glitter]

Broadening it out a bit. Not a troll,

Scarcity in a market is supposed to increase value. Why is the U.K. not training more doctors?
Do doctors, if not at an individual level, but an organisational level, understand this and protect/promote the scarcity of Doctors?

It’s probably a mistake to label all Doctors as altruistically driven angels. Nye Bevan had to “stuff their mouths with gold” to get the NHS off the start line

Because nobody wants to do it because the working conditions are shit and the pay isn’t enough to compensate for how shit they are.

 

[MickiQ]

Broadening it out a bit. Not a troll,

Scarcity in a market is supposed to increase value. Why is the U.K. not training more doctors?
Do doctors, if not at an individual level, but an organisational level, understand this and protect/promote the scarcity of Doctors?

It’s probably a mistake to label all Doctors as altruistically driven angels. Nye Bevan had to “stuff their mouths with gold” to get the NHS off the start line

I think very few doctors do it out of altruism. I think mostly because it's a (relatively) well paid job with a high social standing.
And I'm actually cool with that, takes a long time to train them. Besides I don't work out of altruism don't expect anyone else to.
As for why not train more well basically cost. Takes roughly a quarter of a million to train a doctor with a high drop out rate. The government restricts the number purely and simply to keep the cost down.
Something similar happens with nurses, Middle Q was in the last batch to receive a bursary. Now they're under the same rules as other students, the govt logic seemed to be "nursing is oversubscribed so if we stop paying them to learn and make them pay us there will be more nurses'
I don't think they thought it through.

 

[kalidarkone]

Interesting you all feel we deserve pay restoration.

I’m ambivalent. Mainly because I feel so fucking bad at my nursing and HCA colleagues being absolutely fucking mugged off. That makes me want to cry. They work so hard.

Obviously a nurse doesn’t have the same responsibility as a doctor, hasn’t had the length of training, and doesn’t work our insane rotas.

But I still cannot in clear conscience stand on a picket line demanding my £51k salary be increased to £68k when my nursing colleagues are having to use food banks.

We should be striking in solidarity. I'm for the doctors getting 33% and the nurses and HCAS etc getting the 19% we have asked for.
If the junior doctors are in anyway successful then I think that will be a massive help towards the nurses strike. The doctors strength and resilience is a huge motivation!

Got the four day strike coming up this week and it's going to be mayhem without our junior docs that do most of the work and important admin like operation notes and discharge letters. (Obviously they do way more then this....but these are the things I notice that don't get done when they are not here) .

 

[weltweit]

I think doctors should be well paid.

They are highly educated which affects things in a couple of ways. Firstly they are able to being the benefits of great education to bear on their work which suggests they need good recompense but also in all the years of their education they are not earning at all, instead are developing a large debt while people in other walks of life are already earning. By the time they get to first earning other have already made many thousands and doctors should start on a large salary to make up the difference and to give them a chance to make inroads into their debts.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think doctors should be well paid.

They are highly educated which affects things in a couple of ways. Firstly they are able to being the benefits of great education to bear on their work which suggests they need good recompense but also in all the years of their education they are not earning at all, instead are developing a large debt while people in other walks of life are already earning. By the time they get to first earning other have already made many thousands and doctors should start on a large salary to make up the difference and to give them a chance to make inroads into their debts.

This is another argument for the abolition of tuition fees and returning to a grant system, really.

For me, it exemplifies the harm done by the current loans system. It turns greater pay inequality into a moral good.

 

[Winot]

Broadening it out a bit. Not a troll,

Scarcity in a market is supposed to increase value. Why is the U.K. not training more doctors?
Do doctors, if not at an individual level, but an organisational level, understand this and protect/promote the scarcity of Doctors?

The government doesn’t fund the training places.

 

[weltweit]

This is another argument for the abolition of tuition fees and returning to a grant system, really.

For me, it exemplifies the harm done by the current loans system. It turns greater pay inequality into a moral good.

I think it needs to be clearer the remuneration one can expect from one career compared to another. I wasn't at all clear about such things when I was going through my education, though perhaps I didn't have so many choices anyhow but that is another story.

Aren't architects another profession that has a long education before starting earning?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think it needs to be clearer the remuneration one can expect from one career compared to another. I wasn't at all clear about such things when I was going through my education, though perhaps I didn't have so many choices anyhow but that is another story.

Aren't architects another profession that has a long education before starting earning?

I think 18-year-olds shouldn't have to worry about such things. Study what interests you. I'd like everyone to be given the opportunity of a free space for study and education for their own sake, not for them already to be worrying about how the fuck they're going to pay back all this debt.

This isn't some impossible pipe dream. It's completely and easily doable.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Because nobody wants to do it because the working conditions are shit and the pay isn’t enough to compensate for how shit they are.

Actually it's because the government has restricted the number of training places.

 

[friedaweed]

I don't think a 33% pay offer is ever going to be feasible or a sensible request in the current climate. It'll just get squeezed out of somewhere else and you'll end up with a bigger problem than where you started.

Invariably to enable that to happen other areas would have to face cuts. That's not solidarity with the rest of the workforce. You do have some very top heavy salaries in the NHS at the other end of the scale which could be sliced but that's never going to happen.

I'm not disputing the idea of worth just being pragmatic about how that would pan out in reality.

Its happening in other public services, the increase in pay is not resulting in increasing budgets pots it's seeing cuts in 'None essential' activity.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't think a 33% pay offer is ever going to be feasible or a sensible request in the current climate. It'll just get squeezed out of somewhere else and you'll end up with a bigger problem than where you started.

Invariably to enable that to happen other areas would have to face cuts. That's not solidarity with the rest of the workforce. You do have some very top heavy salaries in the NHS at the other end of the scale which could be sliced but that's never going to happen.

I'm not disputing the idea of worth just being pragmatic about how that would pan out in reality.

Its happening in other public services, the increase in pay is not resulting in increasing budgets pots it's seeing cuts in 'None essential' activity.

Well we need to push for increases in budgets as well, then. Increase in taxes if necessary, although of course everyone who gets a pay rise is also paying more tax.

Isn't this a version of divide and rule? Your real income is decreasing but don't ask for more as that will impact negatively on others. No, the budget cuts impact negatively on others, not your pay increase, and those budget cuts are a choice.

Need to stand against the whole damn lot!

 

[friedaweed]

Well we need to push for increases in budgets as well, then. Increase in taxes if necessary, although of course everyone who gets a pay rise is also paying more tax.

Isn't this a version of divide and rule? Your real income is decreasing but don't ask for more as that will impact negatively on others. No, the budget cuts impact negatively on others, not your pay increase, and those budget cuts are a choice.

Need to stand against the whole damn lot!

Of course but the reality is all this is happening in a time of decreased budgetary allocations and cloth cutting exercises in services that are already stripped back to the bare bones.

I'm not specifically talking about the junior Dr's just public services in general. In my area of work one half of the workforce has just voted to accept an 11% increase over two years whereas the other half settled for a set figure across the pays scales meaning that those on less recieved a higher % increase. That seemed the fair thing to accept at the time. Now the unions want to go back and ask for the equivalent 11% for the other half of the workforce.This is at a time where services are required to make savings due to budget cuts.

To sustain those increases the only place to source the buget increases required is through raising local council tax rates which is a complete no no in the current financial crisis.

It's a broken system and it won't be fixed by raising salaries. That will just lead to further cuts in services.

Don't get me wrong I'm not against pay increases but I'm aware of what the consequences are looking like.

33% isn't feasible and I suspect they know that.

 

[mojo pixy]

I'd love to train to be a doctor, or even fully qualify as a nurse tbh but I can't get a second student loan for a second first degree. Little things like that make me suspect that someone, somewhere, doesn't want more healthcare staff trained in the uk.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I mean, right? So the people earning 100k plus (as Consultants do) must be in top two percentiles.

Yet Consultants are negotiating for higher pay with the threat of IA. And according to bellaozzydog and Magnus McGinty et al reasoning, if I didn’t strike with them once I’m a consultant next year, I wouldn’t be showing solidarity.

Make it make sense.

I’m not sure of the usefulness of having some financial line drawn in the sand for which strikes to support or not. Of course I think cleaners and nurses should get greater pay rises than those more comfortably off; I don’t favour some kind of race to the bottom to achieve this though.

 

[A380]

someone I know from uni is a social worker in Australia and they get flown around their patch so perhaps

I saw a documentary about this once; it’s normally people who have fallen down a well and the doctors get dispatched to the job by a bush kangaroo…

 

[DotCommunist]

This was Good TV:

The Flying Doctors - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[planetgeli]

Of course but the reality is all this is happening in a time of decreased budgetary allocations and cloth cutting exercises in services that are already stripped back to the bare bones.

I'm not specifically talking about the junior Dr's just public services in general. In my area of work one half of the workforce has just voted to accept an 11% increase over two years whereas the other half settled for a set figure across the pays scales meaning that those on less recieved a higher % increase. That seemed the fair thing to accept at the time. Now the unions want to go back and ask for the equivalent 11% for the other half of the workforce.This is at a time where services are required to make savings due to budget cuts.

To sustain those increases the only place to source the buget increases required is through raising local council tax rates which is a complete no no in the current financial crisis.

It's a broken system and it won't be fixed by raising salaries. That will just lead to further cuts in services.

Don't get me wrong I'm not against pay increases but I'm aware of what the consequences are looking like.

33% isn't feasible and I suspect they know that.

I think 33% is good negotiating. Nobody expects to get 33%. But starting from a base that has seen junior doctors pay cut by 25% since 2008, I don't see a problem. All unions should be being this bold. If it's even bold. What has happened to junior doctors, pay, conditions, and recruitment, is emblematic of how the health service has been run down in general.

That will just lead to further cuts in services.

This is a political choice and not inevitable.

 

[LDC]

Oh shit, want to reply to this thread properly, but probably want to write something long and don't have the time or brain space today I think.

Short version, yes, strike for all you can get. And one sector striking helps other sectors, so it's not isolated or 'selfish' for some sectors to strike and demand more while others are on lower wages. I also think how you see the strike, the reasons for it, and the ultimate goals obviously depends on your politics.

I do think that there's some interesting discussions to be had about consultants, very high wages, class positions, how that fits into a broader political strategy, etc. etc.

 

[8ball]

Oh shit, want to reply to this thread properly, but probably want to write something long and don't have the time or brain space today I think.

Short version, yes, strike for all you can get. And one sector striking helps other sectors, so it's not isolated or 'selfish' for some sectors to strike and demand more while others are on lower wages. I also think how you see the strike, the reasons for it, and the ultimate goals obviously depends on your politics.

I do think that there's some interesting discussions to be had about consultants, very high wages, class positions, how that fits into a broader political strategy, etc. etc.

Good short version.
Which is cool cos I’ll probably tl;dr the long one.

 

[Edie]

50 k without a mortgage or rent is ok money but its not well off, how many are in this situation? I'm a very experienced clinician, I see complex and risky young people, I am overqualified in a way and that's not the fault of the NHS, but on my banding and at 30 hrs a week, I'm on just 33,000. The top of my band is just 2k more on those same hours.. I'm on 1k more than when I worked at the top my band at a 6 when I was a trainee 5 years ago. My training is considered doctoral level.

That graph underestimates burnout too. A lot of those professionals only work part time either due to looking after their own health or due to childcare, but they'll normalise doing admin on their day off and evenings. Most psychotherapists won't admit to it either, they'll have a physical illness instead.

We have no nurses in the CAMHS team I work in. They all moved to doing initial assessment so they don't carry a caseload. No nurses in the core CAMHS team of a young medium size English city.

Your wage is an insult. Tho you’re right- junior doctors basic hours are 48 per week, but they often work much more.

I do non-residential on calls (on top of my 48 hours) and with those mine top out at 90+ some weeks (this week ).

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Your wage is an insult. Tho you’re right- junior doctors basic hours are 48 per week, but they often work much more.

I do non-residential on calls (on top of my 48 hours) and with those mine top out at 90+ some weeks (this week ).

Well I hope you get fully recompensed through overtime, and not just doing someone else out of a job for the fun of it.

 

[newme]

Oh shit, want to reply to this thread properly, but probably want to write something long and don't have the time or brain space today I think.

Short version, yes, strike for all you can get. And one sector striking helps other sectors, so it's not isolated or 'selfish' for some sectors to strike and demand more while others are on lower wages. I also think how you see the strike, the reasons for it, and the ultimate goals obviously depends on your politics.

I do think that there's some interesting discussions to be had about consultants, very high wages, class positions, how that fits into a broader political strategy, etc. etc.

There would be far less consultants coming in to fill various roles all over the public sector, if public sector paid properly, had better conditions and a route forwards that did not include waiting 5 years at the nearly same wage or years of extra certifications while working.

From someone brought in as a consultant (not health related directly) to public entities which cannot hold staff for anything, 3 months and half the department left and then the line manager did too. They then seemed surprised they needed to pay the consultants brought in at our rate but also continued to advertise the roles for far less than you could get anywhere else. While I was being paid more then that, they paid the rate above this to my company who also made a profit on it. We keep suggesting they raise rates and hire more internally, they keep leaking staff and hiring more from us as work has to be done and we are available while they can't recruit anyone even with public pensions being a draw. My pension match is shit compared to when I was in public sector, but the overall amount is far more.

 

[newme]

Your wage is an insult. Tho you’re right- junior doctors basic hours are 48 per week, but they often work much more.

I do non-residential on calls (on top of my 48 hours) and with those mine top out at 90+ some weeks (this week ).

How? I assume you get paid extra for it but 90 hours a week sounds insane, this a work pressure thing or just maximising earnings? Surely they could hire more people, not pay overtime rates for 40+ hours a week per person and have a more varied and available workforce overall. Whoever allocated public sector budget pots needs a smack over the head, thats from an ex accountant who now makes bank filling in the gaps.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I’m fairly sure a 90 hour week isn’t even legal.

 

[LDC]

I'd love to train to be a doctor, or even fully qualify as a nurse tbh but I can't get a second student loan for a second first degree. Little things like that make me suspect that someone, somewhere, doesn't want more healthcare staff trained in the uk.

One of the issues that needs dealing with is the training of all medical staff, doctors especially.

 

[PR1Berske]

I’m fairly sure a 90 hour week isn’t even legal.

Overview
You cannot work more than 48 hours a week on average - normally averaged over 17 weeks. This law is sometimes called the ‘working time directive’ or ‘working time regulations’.

You can choose to work more by opting out of the 48-hour week.

If you’re under 18, you cannot work more than 8 hours a day or 40 hours a week.

Exceptions
You may have to work more than 48 hours a week on average if you work in a job:

where 24-hour staffing is required
in the armed forces, emergency services or police
in security and surveillance
as a domestic servant in a private household
as a seafarer, sea-fisherman or worker on vessels on inland waterways
where working time is not measured and you’re in control, for example you’re a managing executive with control over your decisions

 

[Magnus McGinty]

90 hours is dangerous whatever your role.

 

[baldrick]

90 hours is dangerous whatever your role.

And I expect Edie does these on calls because if she doesn't the service will be understaffed. Which is probably more dangerous.

You seem to ascribing bad motivations for Edie's workload and I'm not sure why. Care to explain?