How much do you think doctors should get paid?

[littlebabyjesus]

One of the knock on effects I would think of doctors wages being suppressed is the impact on the future talent pipeline.

If I am a bright kid doing A levels (this forum had some of them 20 years ago!) should I choose to study medicine for 5-7 years at uni?

Or am I better off doing a degree in something business related for 3 years and then a law conversion course (starting trainee salary in London for a city firm minimum 50k) or perhaps trying to get on a big 4 graduate scheme.

For plenty of people they will have to weigh up their vocation against their future financial security

Yes, although the way to address this problem is first and foremost to abolish university tuition fees. The amount of debt all students are expected to get into is unacceptable, but the amount that medical students get into is staggering. That causes enormous social harm (and not just regarding doctors) for precisely the reasons you give here.

 

[SpookyFrank]

But seriously if you wanna go and practice in Australia good luck to you.

It's a pretty good wage for a job which must be 90% removing melanomas and 10% telling people nah mate, that was a funnelweb, you're already a goner.

 

[Elpenor]

I’d imagine the sales pitch for doctors in Australia would be very appealing until you realise you are being recruited to be a doctor not on Bondi beach or Ramsay Street but in one of the more isolated parts of Western Australia or the Northern Territory!

 

[Edie]

I’d imagine the sales pitch for doctors in Australia would be very appealing until you realise you are being recruited to be a doctor not on Bondi beach or Ramsay Street but in one of the more isolated parts of Western Australia or the Northern Territory!

They’re recruiting NHS docs hard I get regular messages offering job and relocation packages.

The salary isn’t really to attract medics- medicine is still way oversubscribed- it’s retention. The attrition rate from burnout after years of being treated like a service providing pawn moved across the country for jobs at will, the rota machine stopping you attending significant social events (the often cited one being your own wedding) and being like an exhausted semi coherent pigeon as long days/ twilights/ nights grind on indefinitely, the exams on top of training, and the often bullying/sexist/racist NHS culture of medics is punishing.

After 5-10 years you just get fatigue for it all.

But then you become a Consultant, get paid 100k a year, add on your private practice, and drive your Porsche and go on ski trips. So ya know cry me a river

 

[Aladdin]

But then you become a Consultant, get paid 100k a year, add on your private practice, and drive your Porsche and go on ski trips. So ya know cry me a river

Over here they've drawn up new consultant contracts which will do away with the whole private practice amongst hospital consultants who sign up. Its not compulsory to sign up. And many established consultants wont be signing.
Private practice is where many of them..not all...make serious money.
I know someone who is on the older contract and never wanted to have a private practice. They work as a hospital consultant and set up a private practice.

 

[Edie]

Over here they've drawn up new consultant contracts which will do away with the whole private practice amongst hospital consultants who sign up. Its not compulsory to sign up. And many established consultants wont be signing.
Private practice is where many of them..not all...make serious money.
I know someone who is on the older contract and never wanted to have a private practice. They work as a hospital consultant and set up a private practice.

The offer is €250,000pa

 

[Aladdin]

The offer is €250,000pa

Yep..and still we need 900 more consultants.

Consultants say 900 vacant posts need to be filled

The Irish Hospital Consultants Association has said that a new public-only hospital consultant contract, approved by the Cabinet today, would not help to reduce waiting lists unless other critical issues are addressed.

www.rte.ie

 
It involves a lot of changes to rotas So not all current consultants will opt for it.

 

[Raheem]

I think the Tories have got it exactly right.

You have to pay eyewatering amounts of money to GPs to manage primary care while their waiting lists balloon, and you have to write off pensions tax for millionaires, a very small proportion of whom are consultant doctors and may or may not plug a few gaps by working below grade on extortionate agency contracts.

If you don't do that, how are they going to put their children through medical training, and where will the next generation of doctors come from?

 

[bellaozzydog]

I’d imagine the sales pitch for doctors in Australia would be very appealing until you realise you are being recruited to be a doctor not on Bondi beach or Ramsay Street but in one of the more isolated parts of Western Australia or the Northern Territory!

My annecdotes aren’t data…but

I did a PHTLS course in Brisbane ten years ago and it consisted entirely of young newly qualified U.K. doctors

Why get thrashed till your eyes bleed when you bugger off somewhere nicer where your T’s and Cs are better

My Romanian/Canadian colleague on this job has a newly qualified doctor daughter. Fluent English and Romanian speaker, she is learning German so she can work/train in Germany rather than move to the U.K to carry on her training

 

[Edie]

I think the Tories have got it exactly right.

You have to pay eyewatering amounts of money to GPs to manage primary care while their waiting lists balloon, and you have to write off pensions tax for millionaires, a very small proportion of whom are consultant doctors and may or may not plug a few gaps by working below grade on extortionate agency contracts.

If you don't do that, how are they going to put their children through medical training, and where will the next generation of doctors come from?

Salaried GPs get paid roughly between £77,000-£104,000. GP partners income varies, but probably upwards. Is that eye watering? I no longer know. The reason you can’t get an appointment is because so many GPs have left because it’s so stressful it’s just not worth it. GPs are not involved in this pay dispute anyway, it’s doctors in training.

lol at the thought that it’s only “millionaires” children that go to Med school. It is definitely predominantly middle class but a good number of working class students and doctors now too. If you think you can do it Raheem go for it it’s there for the taking- see you on AMU in ten years with 100k debt

 

[Edie]

My annecdotes aren’t data…but

I did a PHTLS course in Brisbane ten years ago and it consisted entirely of young newly qualified U.K. doctors

Why get thrashed till your eyes bleed when you bugger off somewhere nicer where your T’s and Cs are better

My Romanian/Canadian colleague on this job has a newly qualified doctor daughter. Fluent English and Romanian speaker, she is learning German so she can work/train in Germany rather than move to the U.K to carry on her training

 

[The39thStep]

It's a pretty good wage for a job which must be 90% removing melanomas and 10% telling people nah mate, that was a funnelweb, you're already a goner.

Do they still issue Doctors with planes there?

 

[Edie]

In graphs… a well balanced piece from The Times I thought

 

[cupid_stunt]

In graphs… a well balanced piece from The Times I thought

The article seems very balanced too - Junior doctors’ strikes: These charts will tell you what’s going on

 

[Thora]

I know lots of nannies who earn £50-60k so I reckon doctors should start on at least £50. £80k-£100k seems like a fair wage.

 

[Edie]

I know lots of nannies who earn £50-60k so I reckon doctors should start on at least £50. £80k-£100k seems like a fair wage.

Wow can you really earn that as a nanny? I think my ‘how much do people earn-o-meter needs re-calibrating. I see anyone earning 50k as well off.

 

[weepiper]

Wow can you really earn that as a nanny? I think my ‘how much do people earn-o-meter is well off. I see anyone earning 50k as well off.

It's not. Anyone earning £50k+ is well off. The median average full time salary in the UK is £33k.

 

[MickiQ]

It's not. Anyone earning £50k+ is well off. The median average full time salary in the UK is £33k.

I can't remember the title of the thread but at least a dozen Urbs claim to be earning north of the £100k mark

 

[Elpenor]

Do they still issue Doctors with planes there?

someone I know from uni is a social worker in Australia and they get flown around their patch so perhaps

 

[Chilli.s]

What kind of arseholes think that reasonable negotiation of pay deals should be a threat to not negotiate if they strike?

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I know lots of nannies who earn £50-60k so I reckon doctors should start on at least £50. £80k-£100k seems like a fair wage.

Bloody hell. Do nannies really earn that much? I had no idea.

 

[Elpenor]

I could see Nannies earning that much easily if a nanny enables both partners to earn big salaries in the city

 

[8ball]

Bloody hell. Do nannies really earn that much? I had no idea.

This thread is liable to stoke up some civil unrest…

 

[Edie]

It's not. Anyone earning £50k+ is well off. The median average full time salary in the UK is £33k.

I mean, right? So the people earning 100k plus (as Consultants do) must be in top two percentiles.

Yet Consultants are negotiating for higher pay with the threat of IA. And according to bellaozzydog and Magnus McGinty et al reasoning, if I didn’t strike with them once I’m a consultant next year, I wouldn’t be showing solidarity.

Make it make sense.

 

[Thora]

Wow can you really earn that as a nanny? I think my ‘how much do people earn-o-meter needs re-calibrating. I see anyone earning 50k as well off.

Long hours, 50-60 a week. And you have to tolerate a lot of rich people. But it can be well paid.

 

[Thora]

I do think doctors should be well off though. Really well off, top centiles etc.

 

[Glitter]

How many hours do junior doctors work? Not how many are they contracted for.

I’d be delighted with £51k but I work 37hpw at a desk job in sociable hours,,nnvnx with leave I can actually take, can work flexibly, take regular breaks, I’ll never get covered in anything gross and if I fuck up nobody gets killed, maimed or has an already unpleasant situation made worse.

Am I right in thinking that junior doctors do a whole lot of unpaid hours? Maybe the answer is to pay the hourly rate but for the actual hours worked? Do you reckon that would equate to the 35%?

 

[Red Cat]

Wow can you really earn that as a nanny? I think my ‘how much do people earn-o-meter needs re-calibrating. I see anyone earning 50k as well off.

50 k without a mortgage or rent is ok money but its not well off, how many are in this situation? I'm a very experienced clinician, I see complex and risky young people, I am overqualified in a way and that's not the fault of the NHS, but on my banding and at 30 hrs a week, I'm on just 33,000. The top of my band is just 2k more on those same hours.. I'm on 1k more than when I worked at the top my band at a 6 when I was a trainee 5 years ago. My training is considered doctoral level.

That graph underestimates burnout too. A lot of those professionals only work part time either due to looking after their own health or due to childcare, but they'll normalise doing admin on their day off and evenings. Most psychotherapists won't admit to it either, they'll have a physical illness instead.

We have no nurses in the CAMHS team I work in. They all moved to doing initial assessment so they don't carry a caseload. No nurses in the core CAMHS team of a young medium size English city.

 

[existentialist]

I can't remember the title of the thread but at least a dozen Urbs claim to be earning north of the £100k mark

I'm on about £25k

(but it's - just about - enough to live on. Or was )

 

[muscovyduck]

I'm supportive.

I suppose the problem is that it's difficult for people to have solidarity with a profession when they remember the career path into it at school being incredibly exclusionary, even if there are technically some work arounds. Even among working class people there's a wide spectrum of privilege and wealth and just because some working class kids or adults can break in, it doesn't make it the norm. There are a lot of people who wanted to take on that £100k debt but weren't ever going to have that option.

I think the support for the strikes should be considered in this context - that these doctors have more barriers to overcome to get public support in comparison with say the RMT because so much effort has been put into dividing them out from the wider working class, and yet they've still managed it.

As long as they stick with sensible messaging and don't do the tone deaf "we could make more working in pret" they briefly trialed as a PR strategy in December, the action is completely inoffensive.