Julie Burchill's attack on transsexuals...

[gunneradt]

We dont need any pages to realise that the chances of you transitioning into a decent human being are rather slim.

ha ha - almost funny. We don't mind if you get your wig out

 

[Firky]

15 pages on trannies - wonderful

No. It is about a journalist. You choose only too see the "trannies" part.

 

[Jollity Farm]

Considering how many pages there are to some of the whimsical game threads in the general forum, I am not sure why someone decided to come into a thread of only thirteen pages and complain that it was about the thing it is clearly labeled as being about. Unless gunneradt meant "wonderful" quite sincerely, and I doubt (s)he did. Also, Sirena should stop talking about "what women do" as opposed to "what men do". "Women" and "men" are not boxes of identical items for sale, but are a great complicated network of billions of different things that are only very loosely connected by fine threads we call gender. There is no one way that men act as opposed to the one way women act. To say that there is is to do the very thing these radical feminists accuse trans people of doing - engaging in gender-related stereotypes.

 

[equationgirl]

gunneradt : this is not a thread to post transphobic comments on. Please stop.

 

[newbie]

.... old school (male) politics ....a very male feature....... just boy stuff... dualistic male political posturing

phew, back on familiar territory!

Women, traditionally, don't resolve their differences by fighting, by confrontation, but by talking.

has anyone told Moore, Birchill, the women who contribute to gendertrender or the women who wrote the tweets quoted on there?

 

[ViolentPanda]

No. It is about a journalist. You choose only too see the "trannies" part.

That's because he's a narrow-minded rape-apologist right-wing shit-sack.

 

[Frankie Jack]

That's because he's a narrow-minded rape-apologist right-wing shit-sack.

You have an excellent way with written verbals VP

 

[gunneradt]

gunneradt : this is not a thread to post transphobic comments on. Please stop.

ha ha lovely

I could crush a grape

 

[DotCommunist]

That's because he's a narrow-minded rape-apologist right-wing shit-sack.

good friend to known beasts as well

 

[ViolentPanda]

ha ha lovely

I could crush a grape

Typical. Stealing the catchphrase of someone who's 10x as manly as you'll ever be.

And yeah, I know Stu Francis wasn't that manly. That's the point.

 

[ViolentPanda]

good friend to known beasts as well

Hardly surprising, is it?

 

[Nylock]

ha ha lovely

I could crush a grape

I was wondering how long it would be before you came along and stunk up the thread -it's not as if you don't have prior form or anything

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I think he should probably stop.

 

[bi0boy]

Go on, tell me why you think it is an oversimplification and why you might find it offensive. I won't get offended. I'm interested.

It doesn't take much knowledge of transsexualism to know that gender isn't defined by hormone treatment. Also, while there might be something to say about different approaches to achieving equality, to say that "demanding rights" = "boy stuff" is, well, I give up.

 

[Sirena]

It doesn't take much knowledge of transsexualism to know that gender isn't defined by hormone treatment. Also, while there might be something to say about different approaches to achieving equality, to say that "demanding rights" = "boy stuff" is, well, I give up.

I think you will find that sex is determined by hormones and once sex is determined, then gender will tend to follow. In the womb, both male and female start with the same standard model (men would not have residual nipples otherwise) and, at about 6 weeks, the presence of the y chromosome triggers a flood of testosterone from the mother and the male is determined. Otherwise the standard model grows to be a female. Once the child is born, successive floods of hormones trigger the further development of the primary sex characteristics and then the secondary. These are what makes a man sexually different from a woman.

Gender is a more subtle thing, in large part socialised, but such socialisation is based on the natural characteristics that oestrogen and testosterone produce in humans. You would have to do some reading up, I'm afraid.

If you give a woman testosterone or a man oestrogen, they will change and that change will not be restricted to physical stuff like muscle development, body hair and fat displacement. A man will become more placid, be subject more to introspection, emotions and moodiness. A woman will become more active and forthright and tend towards anger more readily. The changes, over the years will become quite marked.

I am not saying that hormones are the only thing in determining gender but I think they are overwhelmingly important and, without them, we would not be male and female and Nature would fail.

 

[bi0boy]

I think you will find that sex is determined by hormones and once sex is determined, then gender will tend to follow....I am not saying that hormones are the only thing in determining gender but I think they are overwhelmingly important and, without them, we would not be male and female and Nature would fail.

Ever heard of transexualism? You know, where gender is opposite to the sex of the body and it's hormones? If you think sex hormones are overwhelmingly important in determining gender perhaps you should speak to some transsexuals that have been through puberty?

Gender is a more subtle thing, in large part socialised, but such socialisation is based on the natural characteristics that oestrogen and testosterone produce in humans. You would have to do some reading up, I'm afraid.

I already posted a link in this thread showing how gender is determined in the womb. Perhaps you are confusing gender identity with gender expression?

 

[William of Walworth]

Observer letters page today, Sun 20th.

Stephen Pritchard, Obs Readers editor, on why the Burchill article was wiped.

(That second one was online on Friday, apols if the link's been posted already further up. Just picked up on it in the printed edition today)

 

[smokedout]

Ever heard of transexualism? You know, where gender is opposite to the sex of the body and it's hormones? If you think sex hormones are overwhelmingly important in determining gender perhaps you should speak to some transsexuals that have been through puberty?

interesting that transgenderism appears to blow a hole in both nature and nurture

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I think you will find that sex is determined by hormones and once sex is determined, then gender will tend to follow. ... Gender is a more subtle thing, in large part socialised, but such socialisation is based on the natural characteristics that oestrogen and testosterone produce in humans. You would have to do some reading up, I'm afraid.

If you give a woman testosterone or a man oestrogen, they will change and that change will not be restricted to physical stuff like muscle development, body hair and fat displacement. A man will become more placid, be subject more to introspection, emotions and moodiness. A woman will become more active and forthright and tend towards anger more readily. The changes, over the years will become quite marked.

I am not saying that hormones are the only thing in determining gender but I think they are overwhelmingly important and, without them, we would not be male and female and Nature would fail.

This is the sort of thing that they say, yes. Gender is sex which is binary ("a woman does this, a man does that"). Thanks.

 

[Balham]

I think you will find that sex is determined by hormones and once sex is determined, then gender will tend to follow.

Think gender might be a social concept. I think when I was younger gender was a word that related to linguistics (masc and fem or neutre in language), now it seems it is a word that one finds on forms to fill in, instead of a question asking Sex the form might ask 'Gender' .

Physical sex determined by chromosones then at about seven weeks hormones finish thing off but may miss about bits, like the brain so the 'brain sex' or psychological sex' differs to the physical sex.

I knew someonewho is somewhere between the two sexes sort of thing and who would often challenge 'define a man, define a woman' . Actually not such an easy thing to do, well, when she was about not, she had an intelligent answer, observation for most peoples interpretations.

 

[teuchter]

your own self-righteousness seems to escape you.

...

That's because he's a narrow-minded rape-apologist right-wing shit-sack.

 

[Balbi]

Are you boxing for a points decision teuchter? Because everyone else is playing rummy.

 

[butchersapron]

I've just found out that Parsons and Burchill dedicated their book The Boy Looked at Johnny to Menachem Begin.

 

[stuff_it]

Think gender might be a social concept. I think when I was younger gender was a word that related to linguistics (masc and fem or neutre in language), now it seems it is a word that one finds on forms to fill in, instead of a question asking Sex the form might ask 'Gender' .

Physical sex determined by chromosones then at about seven weeks hormones finish thing off but may miss about bits, like the brain so the 'brain sex' or psychological sex' differs to the physical sex.

I knew someonewho is somewhere between the two sexes sort of thing and who would often challenge 'define a man, define a woman' . Actually not such an easy thing to do, well, when she was about not, she had an intelligent answer, observation for most peoples interpretations.

I should point out now that many of my gay and trans friends on the free party scene are happy to describe shit music as 'gay' just as any straight person would. In fact they quite revel in it as no one can suggest that it's homophobic.

 

[frogwoman]

I've just found out that Parsons and Burchill dedicated their book The Boy Looked at Johnny to Menachem Begin.

why??

 

[sihhi]

Burchill dedicated their book The Boy Looked at Johnny to Menachem Begin.

This is Julie Burchill visiting a private school in Brighton in 2009, as explained by a mainstream pro-Israeli Jew.

http://melpoluck.wordpress.com/2009/03/30/tangled-up-in-jews-but-why/

She told the Limmud conference -coverage from the JC on the talk here - that at the age of 10 she told her mum she wanted to marry a Jew

 

[fogbat]

I think you will find that sex is determined by hormones and once sex is determined, then gender will tend to follow. In the womb, both male and female start with the same standard model (men would not have residual nipples otherwise) and, at about 6 weeks, the presence of the y chromosome triggers a flood of testosterone from the mother and the male is determined. Otherwise the standard model grows to be a female. Once the child is born, successive floods of hormones trigger the further development of the primary sex characteristics and then the secondary. These are what makes a man sexually different from a woman.

Gender is a more subtle thing, in large part socialised, but such socialisation is based on the natural characteristics that oestrogen and testosterone produce in humans. You would have to do some reading up, I'm afraid.

If you give a woman testosterone or a man oestrogen, they will change and that change will not be restricted to physical stuff like muscle development, body hair and fat displacement. A man will become more placid, be subject more to introspection, emotions and moodiness. A woman will become more active and forthright and tend towards anger more readily. The changes, over the years will become quite marked.

I am not saying that hormones are the only thing in determining gender but I think they are overwhelmingly important and, without them, we would not be male and female and Nature would fail.

It is only days ago that you complained about people using science, and derided "book learning".

 

[ViolentPanda]

It is only days ago that you complained about people using science, and derided "book learning".

Remember, my friend, that according to Ralph Waldo Emerson, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines".
And fogbats, so it seems.

 

[fogbat]

Remember, my friend, that according to Ralph Waldo Emerson, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines".
And fogbats, so it seems.

I think I come under "little minds".

 

[Santino]

I think I come under "little minds".

And hobgoblin.