Julie Burchill forced to apologise for twitter comments , and pay out a fat wedge .

[Edie]

your quote suggests jb against rather than for islamists. the 'As well as directing her Facebook followers to “wade in on Twitter” against “the Islamists”' sits ill with your 'jb's an islamist' claim. don't you think?

and a philosemite is someone who loves jews.

An Islamist isn't someone who's prejudiced against Muslims (that would be an Islamophobe), it's someone who advocates for Islamic ideology in one form or another.

Ohhh. I assumed an Islamist was someone who followed Islamic teachings. Apologies. Shit that post looks dumb on my part.

So she encouraged her followers to defend Islamic teachings? But I thought the woman Ash was Muslim and Birchill had been racist against her?

 

[belboid]

Aisha was 6 or 7 when they married and the marriage was consummated when she was 9 or 10, and he was 53. I'm not sure what the word for that is other than paedophilia: she was prepubescent by any standard.

Oh dear, why are you repeating this tosh?

some Muslims make the above claim, it is not a fact as you present it. In all likelihood she was the same age as Mary when she married Joseph and gave birth to that Jesus bloke.

the claim is made because Aisha was, supposedly, so mature in every way she was a grown woman by the time she was ten.

obviously she wasn’t prepubescent when she became pregnant, because the two meanings contradict each other.

 

[Pickman's model]

Ohhh. I assumed an Islamist was someone who followed Islamic teachings. Apologies. Shit that post looks dumb on my part.

So she encouraged her followers to defend Islamic teachings? But I thought the woman Ash was Muslim and Birchill had been racist against her?

islamism is political islam, it's like hizb ut tahrir and jihadis. people who'd use islam as the basis of the law of a state, to perhaps oversimplify it. not your everyday muslim but someone who wants to overturn things into a hellish theocracy.

burchill is a nasty piece of work. and she did libel this muslim woman. anyway, Islamism

 

[marty21]

My dad hates gardening so at least we were spared that...

I don't remember ever going to a garden centre with my dad mrs21 likes them though

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ohhh. I assumed an Islamist was someone who followed Islamic teachings. Apologies. Shit that post looks dumb on my part.

So she encouraged her followers to defend Islamic teachings? But I thought the woman Ash was Muslim and Birchill had been racist against her?

Burchill encouraged her followers to attack Islamists. To be an Islamist means a bit more than that you follow Islamic teachings, it is that you base your politics on Islamic teachings.

 

[danny la rouge]

Oh dear, why are you repeating this tosh?

some Muslims make the above claim, it is not a fact as you present it. In all likelihood she was the same age as Mary when she married Joseph and gave birth to that Jesus bloke.

the claim is made because Aisha was, supposedly, so mature in every way she was a grown woman by the time she was ten.

obviously she wasn’t prepubescent when she became pregnant, because the two meanings contradict each other.

Muslim tradition holds what I said to be the case. I repeat it because that’s what is said by mainstream Muslim tradition. It has been argued that the ages are exaggerations meant to emphasise her virginity. That doesn’t, however, make the case people think it does.

The age of Mary at the time she was raped by the Holy Spirit is not part of Christian tradition.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Ohhh. I assumed an Islamist was someone who followed Islamic teachings. Apologies. Shit that post looks dumb on my part.

So she encouraged her followers to defend Islamic teachings? But I thought the woman Ash was Muslim and Birchill had been racist against her?

That’s a Muslim.

Islamists are the ones with the guns and the ideology, the ones who want to impose their own narrow interpretation of Sharia law wherever they go, the ones who lop off heads and throw people off buildings.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

the claim is made because Aisha was, supposedly, so mature in every way she was a grown woman by the time she was ten.

Rather uncomfortable echoes of justifications made by paedophiles, tbh, fixating on the sexual development of very young girls.

I know there are problems here with our distance from that time, but that doesn't make it sound better.

One of the defences I've read of this is that 'they were different times, values and norms were different'. But that rather leads to the question 'If times and morality were so different, why should we bother listening to anything said by someone from that time?'

 

[SheilaNaGig]

That’s a Muslim.

Islamists are the ones with the guns and the ideology, the ones who want to impose their own narrow interpretation of Sharia law wherever they go, the ones who lop off heads and throw people off buildings.

It’s the -ist suffix that gives it away.

LIke -itis means inflammation, -ist means someone with bigoted views who want to impose them : racist sexist misogynist Islamist... (NB this is not a rule! There are good -ists too)

Easy to muddle it up with Islamic though. Which is an adjective to describe Muslims.

 

[Edie]

Muslim tradition holds what I said to be the case. I repeat it because that’s what is said by mainstream Muslim tradition. It has been argued that the ages are exaggerations meant to emphasise her virginity. That doesn’t, however, make the case people think it does.

The age of Mary at the time she was raped by the Holy Spirit is not part of Christian tradition.

On a thread about a stupid woman making stupid comments about another persons religion, do you not think that is a crass comment?

 

[danny la rouge]

On a thread about a stupid woman making stupid comments about another persons religion, do you not think that is a crass comment?

I was responding to a particular point that was made regarding freedom of speech. I didn’t think anything I said was crass, but maybe I’m wrong. You could explain why.

 

[Edie]

I was responding to a particular point that was made regarding freedom of speech. I didn’t think anything I said was crass, but maybe I’m wrong. You could explain why.

I’ve no interest in attempting to defend Christianity on here that would be insane. I’m sure you can work it out.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

On a thread about a stupid woman making stupid comments about another persons religion, do you not think that is a crass comment?

I think, fwiw, that on a thread about a stupid woman making stupid comments about another person's stupid religion, it was fair comment. But I would never dare post that, because it might be misconstrued.

 

[Pickman's model]

I was responding to a particular point that was made regarding freedom of speech. I didn’t think anything I said was crass, but maybe I’m wrong. You could explain why.

there is of course a long and unhappy tradition of gods raping women, for examples lara raped by hermes, liriope raped by cephissus, medusa raped by poseidon, nemesis raped by zeus.

 

[danny la rouge]

I’ve no interest in attempting to defend Christianity on here that would be insane. I’m sure you can work it out.

Oh, that part! Wow, I honestly thought you were referring to the part about Aisha’s age.

No, I think it’s well established that by Christian tradition, Mary neither consented, nor was even aware at the time, to her imprégnation by the Holy Spirit. She doesn’t know until an Angel tells her.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

there is of course a long and unhappy tradition of gods raping women, for examples lara raped by hermes, liriope raped by cephissus, medusa raped by poseidon, nemesis raped by zeus.

And there is also a feminist take on that, which says that they weren’t raped, they took lovers from amongst the gods but that was frowned upon because women can’t be seen to have sexual agency, so it must have been rape.

 

[Pickman's model]

And there is also a feminist take on that, which says that they weren’t raped, they took lovers from amongst the gods but that was frowned upon because women can’t be seen to have sexual agency, so it must have been rape.

i wonder whether mary's case has ever been considered in a similar light.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And there is also a feminist take on that, which says that they weren’t raped, they took lovers from amongst the gods but that was frowned upon because women can’t be seen to have sexual agency, so it must have been rape.

Of course these are all just stories, as is the virgin birth, and as probably are large sections of biographical detail about Muhammad. In terms of their relevance to today, how those stories are told matters because of religion. Nobody takes seriously the actions of the gods as described in Homer, but they do of the actions of gods (and their prophets) as described in the Bible and the Quran.

The actual truth of the matters is impossible to know and kind of irrelevant, which is why Danny is right to refer to the traditions not the history or the facts. How and why the stories are told as they are is relevant, and tells us much about those telling the stories, as you intimate here.

 

[Raheem]

i wonder whether mary's case has ever been considered in a similar light.

Now it has, so thanks...

 

[Pickman's model]

Of course these are all just stories, as is the virgin birth, and as probably are large sections of biographical detail about Muhammad. In terms of their relevance to today, how those stories are told matters because of religion. Nobody takes seriously the actions of the gods as described in Homer, but they do of the actions of gods (and their prophets) as described in the Bible and the Quran.

The actual truth of the matters is impossible to know and kind of irrelevant, which is why Danny is right to refer to the traditions not the history or the facts. How and why the stories are told as they are is relevant, and tells us much about those telling the stories, as you intimate here.

baal and dagon never receive quite the reception they deserve in the bible.

 

[belboid]

Rather uncomfortable echoes of justifications made by paedophiles, tbh, fixating on the sexual development of very young girls.

that isnt really the justification offered by paedophiles. Plus the fact that she supposedly got pregnant at that age meant she couldn't have been prepubescent, which is the obvious point.

 

[belboid]

Muslim tradition holds what I said to be the case. I repeat it because that’s what is said by mainstream Muslim tradition. It has been argued that the ages are exaggerations meant to emphasise her virginity. That doesn’t, however, make the case people think it does.

The age of Mary at the time she was raped by the Holy Spirit is not part of Christian tradition.

wow. It takes quite a lot to make the idiot Dawkins look reasonable, but well done you!

 

[8ball]

islamism is political islam, it's like hizb ut tahrir and jihadis. people who'd use islam as the basis of the law of a state, to perhaps oversimplify it. not your everyday muslim but someone who wants to overturn things into a hellish theocracy.

The "political Islam" bit is correct, but by my understanding the "hellish theocracy" bit isn't quite always correct.

 

[8ball]

i wonder whether mary's case has ever been considered in a similar light.

Think the consensus is she married at perhaps 14 or a little older, and was 16 when Jesus was born.

 

[danny la rouge]

wow. It takes quite a lot to make the idiot Dawkins look reasonable, but well done you!

Feel free to point out what was unreasonable about what I said.

 

[Pickman's model]

Think the consensus is she married at perhaps 14 or a little older, and was 16 when Jesus was born.

thus making god a nonce as we stand today

 

[two sheds]

well only one of them

 

[8ball]

Feel free to point out what was unreasonable about what I said.

Not so much unreasonable, but Luke 1: 38 suggests the sentence is in error.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

that isnt really the justification offered by paedophiles. Plus the fact that she supposedly got pregnant at that age meant she couldn't have been prepubescent, which is the obvious point.

Damning with faint praise really, though, isn't it? He waited until she started to bleed, then fucked her straight away. No matter how precocious a 10-year-old girl is, she is far from fully developed and pregnancy will be hugely dangerous for her. Did he know that? Did he care?

As I said above, the truth of the matter is irrelevant. The stories people choose to tell, and the actions they justify by those stories, are what matter. In this case, shitty actions are justified by this particular story all around the world to this very day.

 

[8ball]

thus making god a nonce as we stand today

Not necessarily. Though social services might take a dim view of the age difference and power imbalance.