Julie Burchill forced to apologise for twitter comments , and pay out a fat wedge .

[agricola]

The three impostors, Moses, Jesus, Mohamed

if only Lucian had been around in their times

 

[danny la rouge]

Yawn, nothing more than some rather poor sophistry there, Danny. You are wrong on most aspects, as you have accepted for one, but whatever. Your starting point seems to be a matter of historical conjecture (and tradition) rather than actual human beings, a mere intellectual exercise. On this thread (or indeed, in this time, when it comes to your comment on Mary) it seems grossly inappropriate, unless you think Birchall shouldn't have apologised.

Yeah, saying “yawn” isn’t an argument.

It’s quite clear Burchill was making a personal and bigoted attack. What I’m not going to agree is that religions and indeed cultural mores cannot be criticised. They can and should.

 

[chilango]

What about Robin Hood? Was he real?

 

[danny la rouge]

What about Robin Hood? Was he real?

No.

 

[Pickman's model]

What about Robin Hood? Was he real?

Yes, he's in films and everything

 

[Sue]

What about Robin Hood? Was he real?

Robin of Loxley, absolutely.

 

[8ball]

Robin of Loxley, absolutely.

But didn't you ever think it was odd how he had that funny accent and an uncanny resemblance to Kevin Costner?

 

[Edie]

Yeah, saying “yawn” isn’t an argument.

It’s quite clear Burchill was making a personal and bigoted attack. What I’m not going to agree is that religions and indeed cultural mores cannot be criticised. They can and should.

Saying the Holy Spirit raped Mary is not criticising a religion. It’s scoring a cheap point because you think you’re better than other people.

 

[Sue]

But didn't you ever think it was odd how he had that funny accent and an uncanny resemblance to Kevin Costner?

Kevin Costner indeed. More like Errol Flynn.

 

[Santino]

There was a good documentary fronted by Tony Robinson, which pointed out that the name Robin Hood was in use as a general nickname for outlaws long before any of the serious candidates for the 'real' Robin were born.

 

[killer b]

Well this thread has become an unexpected treat.

 

[Sue]

There was a good documentary fronted by Tony Robinson, which pointed out that the name Robin Hood was in use as a general nickname for outlaws long before any of the serious candidates for the 'real' Robin were born.

My favourite was Captain Swing.

Captain Swing - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[danny la rouge]

Saying the Holy Spirit raped Mary is not criticising a religion. It’s scoring a cheap point because you think you’re better than other people.

It turns out Luke says Mary gave her prior consent to an Angel, so I was mistaken there. But I didn’t say it because I think I’m better than anyone. I don’t. I just think that the Abrahamic religions especially have internalised a huge amount of misogyny. And I think it’s OK for me to say so. In fact I think it’s important for people to say so. If an aspect of a creed or philosophy is contrary to what I believe are universal principles of equity, justice and humanity I’ll say so.

What I don’t do, nor would I ever attempt to do, is try to convert any believer to atheism. People should be afforded the freedom to their faith. I’ve always thought so.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

It turns out Luke says Mary gave her prior consent to an Angel, so I was mistaken there. But I didn’t say it because I think I’m better than anyone. I don’t. I just think that the Abrahamic religions especially have internalised a huge amount of misogyny. And I think it’s OK for me to say so. In fact I think it’s important for people to say so. If an aspect of a creed or philosophy is contrary to what I believe are universal principles of equity, justice and humanity I’ll say so.

What I don’t do, nor would I ever attempt to do, is try to convert any believer to atheism. People should be afforded the freedom to their faith. I’ve always thought so.

Framing Mary as a rape victim does nothing to empower women.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Framing Mary as a rape victim does nothing to empower women.

So what?

Christianity does little to empower women. That's the point being made, I would have thought.

The whole idea of the 'virgin birth' is deeply misogynistic imo.

 

[danny la rouge]

Framing Mary as a rape victim does nothing to empower women.

I’m sorry, I don’t understand your point. Mine is that Christianity is misogynistic.

 

[Raheem]

It turns out Luke says Mary gave her prior consent to an Angel, so I was mistaken there. But I didn’t say it because I think I’m better than anyone. I don’t. I just think that the Abrahamic religions especially have internalised a huge amount of misogyny. And I think it’s OK for me to say so. In fact I think it’s important for people to say so.

But it's about context, isn't it? A question like "was Muhammad a paedophile" might be suitable for sober discussion with people you know won't punch you, but not really for flinging at a Muslim you don't like on Twitter.

 

[danny la rouge]

But it's about context, isn't it? A question like "was Muhammad a paedophile" might be suitable for sober discussion with people you know won't punch you, but not really for flinging at a Muslim you don't like on Twitter.

I agree.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

So what?

Christianity does little to empower women. That's the point being made, I would have thought.

So it adds to the general atmosphere of misogyny.

How about reframing the women in these myth cycles as people with agency and autonomy.

As Danny says, it turns out that Mary didn’t give consent. Yet the received or perceived idea is that she was at the mercy of larger forces..

Jesus had less agency during the crucifixion, pleading before and during to freed from his fate. He's not seen as a victim.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Burchill's new found publisher has links to Patriotic Alternative

Londoner’s Diary: ‘Far-Right link’ of Julie Burchill’s new publisher

Welcome back to the Londoner’s Diary. First up, we hear about the alleged far-right connections of Julie Burchill’s new publisher, Stirling Publishing. Later on singer-songwriter Imelda May recalls an ill-fated camping trip with her parents to Paris. Then in SW1A, Ed Balls reveals the boss he...

www.standard.co.uk

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I’m sorry, I don’t understand your point. Mine is that Christianity is misogynistic.

Yes, it is.
And promulgating that by stating that Mary was raped does nothing to push back on the misogyny. There are plenty of other women in the bible who were fucked around but Mary is seen and held to be chosen, blessdd amongst all women etc. So if even the most revered of women is a victim of rape by God, then what can any other woman hope for.

 

[danny la rouge]

So it adds to the general atmosphere of misogyny.

Now about reframing the women in these myth cycles as people with agency and autonomy.

As Danny says, it turns out that Mary didn’t give consent. Yet the received or perceived idea is that she was at the mercy of larger forces..

Jesus had less agency during the crucifixion, pleading before and during to freed from his fate. He's not seen as a victim.

I’m sorry, I’m not following you. I agree that rewriting myths to give women agency would be an empowering act. Great. Go for it. But the myths as they stand reflect the patriarchal societies that laid them down millennia ago. Which is why they are open to criticism.

I’ve a feeling we actually agree with each other but have somehow got our wires crossed.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Yes, it is.
And promulgating that by stating that Mary was raped does nothing to push back on the misogyny. There are plenty of other women in the bible who were fucked around but Mary is seen and held to be chosen, blessdd amongst all women etc. So if even the most revered of women is a victim of rape by God, then what can any other woman hope for.

Don’t drag her down. Raise her up as a stong powerful woman, who gave her consent. That allows a chink for other women to stand strong too.

 

[killer b]

I'd prefer to reject rather than reframe the myths of Christianity tbh (and Islam etc)

 

[danny la rouge]

Yes, it is.
And promulgating that by stating that Mary was raped does nothing to push back on the misogyny.

My mistake was in thinking that what the myth implied. I wasn’t trying to rewrite the myth.

 

[The39thStep]

Kevin Costner indeed. More like Errol Flynn.

Errol, white shirt, not looking at his best tbh with Fidel Castro

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I’m sorry, I’m not following you. I agree that rewriting myths to give women agency would be an empowering act. Great. Go for it. But the myths as they stand reflect the patriarchal societies that laid them down millennia ago. Which is why they are open to criticism.

I’ve a feeling we actually agree with each other but have somehow got our wires crossed.

Yes, no doubt.

Mary did give her consent. Right?

But (for whatever reasons, possibly including patriarchal assumptions, habit of thought) you said she was a rape victim.

I’m saying that to assume and then present her as a victim of rape doesn’t help women to feel empowered or to stand up against Xian misogyny.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I'd prefer to reject rather than reframe the myths of Christianity tbh (and Islam etc)

We - the human mind - need our myth cycles. Without them, we invent new ones and get conspiracy bollocks.

 

[andysays]

Saying the Holy Spirit raped Mary is not criticising a religion. It’s scoring a cheap point because you think you’re better than other people.

See also, saying Mohammed was a paedo.

My Dad, brought up a Catholic but going to a mostly Protestant school, was bullied by kids who joked about how Mary was actually raped by Roman soldiers*. They weren't interested in having a theological discussion about the issues around the virgin birth, they were just being cunts and attacking an individual through what they thought was an important aspect of their religion.

That's what all this "Mohammed was a paedo" stuff is about, whether it's Burchill or the EDL doing it, and anyone who defends it because they don't like Islamism or support some dubious right to free speech and to criticise religion is a bit of a mug, frankly.

* yes, I am aware of the irony of this

 

[killer b]

We - the human mind - need our myth cycles. Without them, we invent new ones and get conspiracy bollocks.

I don't know about that. I don't think we've had a long enough crack at it yet.