james purnell hate thread

[Zachor]

Everything about it's wrong. Most especially since there are no jobs, but this isn't about getting people paid work.. just off their books and saving money.

No its not. Although I agree that the current bills are unsustainable its also about giving people something to do and stopping them falling through the cracks.

You appear so determined to punish the "lazy fuckers" that you don't care about dragging a load of genuine people who are ill/ caring for people or their kids into punitive workfare.

Yes I do want to do something about lazy fuckers but I have repeatedly said that compulsory work shouldn't penalise those with caring responsibilities. Work brings self respect and I've seen so many people on benefit who hav elost or who are losing their self respect.

 

[_angel_]

No its not. Although I agree that the current bills are unsustainable its also about giving people something to do and stopping them falling through the cracks.


Yes I do want to do something about lazy fuckers but I have repeatedly said that compulsory work shouldn't penalise those with caring responsibilities. Work brings self respect and I've seen so many people on benefit who hav elost or who are losing their self respect.

You know if they were just proposing about 10 hours work for job seekers getting £60 a week, that would be fair enough and being paid the market rate. However proposing fulltime, never ending toil for about £1.20 an hour is totally wrong whichever way you try and dress it up.

Will people on workfare get entitlement to holidays even?

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Zachor, what would you do with someone like this:

A friend of mines cousin (yeah it really is a friend of mine, nowt to do with me) is 34 years old. He lives on a grim council estate (the one where the bill films all its council estate scenes) is a crack addict, has totally alienated himself from the estate, let alone society, he's never had a job in his life and all he has ever known is taking and selling drugs since the age of 13.

Now the obvious answer is treatment, but there isn't enough spaces. Force him to do community work? could do but he'll just refuse. If he refuses? cut his benefit, then what do you think will happen? he'll turn to yet more crime and end up on the streets or prison. No employer is ever going to employ this man.

I'm not trying to be snidey but seriously, what the fuck do you do with people like this? leave them on the street? lock them up? (which by the way will cost more than he receives in benefit) some people are beyond help, unfortunately. Leaving these people to rot is not the mark of the decent society we attest to being but that's exactly what will happen with these 'reforms.'

 

[Zachor]

You know if they were just proposing about 10 hours work for job seekers getting £60 a week, that would be fair enough and being paid the market rate. However proposing fulltime, never ending toil for about £1.20 an hour is totally wrong whichever way you try and dress it up.

Will people on workfare get entitlement to holidays even?

If I was running the system then I would pay those who volunteered for the system min wage for all ours aboove ten worked so if somneone worked 20 hourse that would be benefit + ten hours at min wage rate and they would be able to keep HB and CT and other benefits.

Those who refuse and who have to be forced to work shouldn't have the extra money.

Of course people on national service schemes should have thr right to holidays.

 

[Zachor]

Zachor, what would you do with someone like this:

A friend of mines cousin (yeah it really is a friend of mine, nowt to do with me) is 34 years old. He lives on a grim council estate (the one where the bill films all its council estate scenes) is a crack addict, has totally alienated himself from the estate, let alone society, he's never had a job in his life and all he has ever known is taking and selling drugs since the age of 13.

Now the obvious answer is treatment, but there isn't enough spaces. Force him to do community work? could do but he'll just refuse. If he refuses? cut his benefit, then what do you think will happen? he'll turn to yet more crime and end up on the streets or prison. No employer is ever going to employ this man.

I'm not trying to be snidey but seriously, what the fuck do you do with people like this? leave them on the street? lock them up? (which by the way will cost more than he receives in benefit) some people are beyond help, unfortunately. Leaving these people to rot is not the mark of the decent society we attest to being but that's exactly what will happen with these 'reforms.'

Treatment. Individually tailored special treatment and if necessary removal from the environment where he lives to avoid relapses. Substance abuse treatment has long been treated as the ugly sister in the mental health service.

You need to offer as much help as possible to get people straight.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Treatment. Individually tailored special treatment and if necessary removal from the environment where he lives to avoid relapses. Substance abuse treatment has long been treated as the ugly sister in the mental health service.

You need to offer as much help as possible to get people straight.

Well yeah that's the obvious answer isn't it? but it's not happening, instead we get this repugnant wanker coming up with this instead.

Just think, all the money given to the banks could've cleaned up every single addict in this country and we still would've had billions left over.

 

[Zachor]

Well yeah that's the obvious answer isn't it? but it's not happening, instead we get this repugnant wanker coming up with this instead. .

It is the obvious answer. However since when did obvious answers come from our politicians.

Just think, all the money given to the banks could've cleaned up every single addict in this country and we still would've had billions left over.

I couldn't agree more.

I still think that being kept busy would help to avoid many people brooding on their problems and seeking solace in the bottle etc.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

I couldn't agree more.

I still think that being kept busy would help to avoid many people brooding on their problems and seeking solace in the bottle etc.

Yes but you seam to suggest that paid employment or nationl service is the only way to do this and it's here I disagree. There are plenty of people that need caring for, having the shopping done or just someone to talk to but you obviously can't really allow people heavily adicted to drugs to do this.

I don't see why the job centre can't be like a scheme that's run in some areas, I forget what it's called. They have a very high success rate of getting people off benefit because they actually listen and give a shit about people. They find people work, or at least work experience, in jobs they actually want to do rather than forcing them into a hellish minimum wage job. As a result more people get into work and people actually feel happy and valued.

It's despairing how easy some things are to fix. I'm not saying it'll be a cakewalk but it doesn't need to be as difficult as politicians make it.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Zachor, you are just a very stupid troll.

 

[Zachor]

Yes but you seam to suggest that paid employment or nationl service is the only way to do this and it's here I disagree. There are plenty of people that need caring for, having the shopping done or just someone to talk to but you obviously can't really allow people heavily adicted to drugs to do this..

Of course. I can see where we disagree. I believe that Nat Service is pointless for most Junkies and problematic drinkers. Some may find a lifeline in work but others may not. However, for those with minor reactive depression and joblessness caused isolation it could be a major benefit. Getting the lazy fuckers off of their arses will be a bonus. But the major thrust of national service should be repairing the damage of the past, rebuilding individuals lives and re responsiblising people.

I don't see why the job centre can't be like a scheme that's run in some areas, I forget what it's called. They have a very high success rate of getting people off benefit because they actually listen and give a shit about people. They find people work, or at least work experience, in jobs they actually want to do rather than forcing them into a hellish minimum wage job. As a result more people get into work and people actually feel happy and valued..

These schemes are good ones and I think that any national service scheme shouldn't put round pegs into square holes as a matter of policy but should seek to bring out peoples hidden talents.

It's despairing how easy some things are to fix. I'm not saying it'll be a cakewalk but it doesn't need to be as difficult as politicians make it.

Agree there.

 

[Zachor]

Zachor, you are just a very stupid troll.

not so much of the stupid please.

 

[Awesome Wells]

not so much of the stupid please.

I call it as I see it; especially from someone who should know better given that they have claimed to have experience on life on the wrong side of the dole queue.

 

[treelover]

The architect of the sanctions report, Professor Paul Gregg of Bristol University was interviewed, earlier, trying to paint the sanctions in a sympathetic light, pah! Incidentially, he looked and sounded like a comtemporary of Purnells, it was weird to see a very trendy youngish guy coming out with such neo-victorian stuff. Wonder if he wore a 'coal not dole' badge in his youth?

 

[Zachor]

Purnell's reforms are a missed opportunity. Missed because he could have given work and hope to many, missed because there is nothing substantial regarding drug and alcohol treatments, missed because it could have helped to reduce the isolation of single parents through appropriate work and training, missed because no affordable childcare is available in many areas and missed because it could have been the opportunity to build a much more flexible benefits system.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Purnell's reforms are a missed opportunity. Missed because he could have given work and hope to many, missed because there is nothing substantial regarding drug and alcohol treatments, missed because it could have helped to reduce the isolation of single parents through appropriate work and training, missed because no affordable childcare is available in many areas and missed because it could have been the opportunity to build a much more flexible benefits system.

He could have done all sorts of things; you are being entirely disingenuous IMO. Why not focus on what is happening and what's behind it, as well as not ignoring the hypocrisy, manipulation and double standards involved.

Honestly I don't get whay youa re posting as you seem hellbent on not getting it at all.

 

[treelover]

Weird thing in the Guardian, three article in sucession supporting the reforms, including one by Gregg, they don't seem to be getting the response they though they would get, maybe becoz folk know it could be them next!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/10/welfare?commentpage=1&commentposted=1

 

[Zachor]

He could have done all sorts of things; you are being entirely disingenuous IMO. Why not focus on what is happening and what's behind it, as well as not ignoring the hypocrisy, manipulation and double standards involved.

Honestly I don't get whay youa re posting as you seem hellbent on not getting it at all.

I just want to know what you and others of a similar pov have got against doing work for the community in exchange for benefits (if I ws running it would be enhanced benefits though).

There is nothing wrong with the principle of work = money.

 

[Cressi]

Coz work does not work....just creates more dirt........now invest in caring......not killing. Capitalism...well all should be taught the boom + bust theories and offered a choice to opt in or out. Globalization twist the workers plights even more. There are other theories Zak.

Lets look at Greece at the mo...plenty of work there?

 

[brasicritique]

I just want to know what you and others of a similar pov have got against doing work for the community in exchange for benefits (if I ws running it would be enhanced benefits though).

There is nothing wrong with the principle of work = money.

you are a major prize turnip as this scheme is proposed there will be little difference between the type of community work done by petty criminals and claiments and is in keeping with the development of a new serf class who will be used to keep wages low in the race to the bottom- there will be 5-6 million people on these new benefits by 2011 imo and as the work trials expand wages will held down. Secondly most of this work will be thru charities - who in turn will not need to employ staff on wages -This whole scheme is basically also about putting downward pressure on wages as a whole how the unions can even allow work trials to go on at the moment when they will be used to keep wages low is sick still i supose there is some union out there who funds purnell - rememebr when there was all this stuff about unions not funding MPs who had not done much for the the unions? i wonder which union sponsors purnell

Labour has now ultimately sold its soul what is worse is how some of you will still vote for them and try and say they are better than the tories ! get real and start a new movement which bars swapies and you migth chnage somthing

 

[Blagsta]

Well yeah that's the obvious answer isn't it? but it's not happening, instead we get this repugnant wanker coming up with this instead.

Just think, all the money given to the banks could've cleaned up every single addict in this country and we still would've had billions left over.

Oh yeah, drug treatment is all about money, how silly of us drug workers thinking it was more complex! You should email the NTA with this revelation!

 

[rollinder]

did I misshear the radio or have they really announced that the take training / the first job they offer you or be forced to do community service / "lose your handouts" (as Radio one so charminly put it) plan is going to apply to all benefits either over two years or in two years time?

 

[Grandma Death]

Zachor, you are just a very stupid troll.

A scab troll.

 

[shagnasty]

In a day when flash gordon saved the world .purnell said there are plenty of vacancies .He must have been asleep in his math lessons

 

[brasicritique]

before these reforms were anouncded was there not a home office report that said there wuold be a ris ein crime and vote for the far right in the event of a recesion and that was before these reforms

 

[elbows]

I would like to register my hatred for the fact they've gotten someone so smug to sell these unpleasant reforms to the masses.

I cannot imagine the reforms achieving anything but insecurity and hate, considering the way the economy is going. Unfortunately it appears that these aspects may be the only real point of the legislation.

 

[brasicritique]

is this union still sponsoring pursewell ?

the Amalgamated Engineering and Electrical Union,(Registered 20 December 2001)

the unions getting fat with the bankers

 

[treelover]

I think it is part of Unite, now, I may be wrong

 

[treelover]

Purnell told MPs that his proposals were consistent with the policies of the 1945 Labour government. He went on: "Today, when the national effort is about a global downturn, we can no more afford to waste taxpayers' money on those who play the system than they could then.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/dec/10/jamespurnell-welfare

In Fridays Guardian, what a cheek, this Govt isn't fit to piss on Atlee's 1945 Govt

 

[treelover]

wrong thread

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Can he go in the slap gallery? for he truly is the new 80's version Portillo

Another vote for an entry into the slap gallery for Purnell.