james purnell hate thread

[Awesome Wells]

You should see a post by the mother of a schizophrenic son, on one of the forums I post on to see how half witted this really is...

.. some of these people want to work, a few hours a week and are going to end up 'thrown' onto JSA which makes no allowances for a relapse... so then, conversely, a lot of people who may be able to do a little work may be scared off from trying that, in case they get ill again and have no support.

the reality is that no one will employ these people and, being on JSA, they will then be treated as a malingerer and lazy, probably sabotaging job interviews (by telling potential omployers of health problems for instance). End result: sanctions, no benefit, etc.

 

[Zachor]

are you suggesting that being out of work is more stressful than being in work?

It can be. And enforced idleness can lead to temptation and crime. Also the lack of funds is a driver for some aquisitive crime.

Are you suggesting that a significant minority, if not a majority, of the unemployed are all on drugs/booze/fucked up?

Not a majority by any means but I saw enough people start out on the suck as hopeful job seekers and six months down the line are either blotting out their existence with booze or worse. Enforced idleness and the despair it causes are contributing factors to booze and drug problems in the cohort of people that I'm familiar with.

Are you suggesting that by purposeful activity you mean work?

Yes in many cases, voluntary activiy and training in others.

 

[Andrew Hertford]

i take it everyone else heard that cunt on today this morning then?

what a fucking cunt.

i'm tempted to send him an email, reminding him what a cunt he is.

can someone kill him please?

Yes I heard him and I didn't like what he was saying, but sending offensive e-mails and wanting someone to kill him? What kind of a sick fucker are you?

 

[Zachor]

the reality is that no one will employ these people and, being on JSA, they will then be treated as a malingerer and lazy, probably sabotaging job interviews (by telling potential omployers of health problems for instance). End result: sanctions, no benefit, etc.

Agree there. What is needed is theraputic work for people like this and if people are not suited for theraputic work then some other treatment or activity should be found.

There is nothing to be gained from hassling the mad and the sad its counterproductive.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Yes in many cases, voluntary activiy and training in others.

Well here's an example of just how stupid our current system and it's only going to get worse.

I'm long term unemployed, went through depression and, I admit, some idleness. I'm now doing an intensive access to HE course which is 13 weeks of teaching, but it's around double that in terms of the amount of study I need to do. The bullshit I had to go through to prove to them i'm on a course is unbelievable.

I can only work part time and I told them this but the JC expect me to look for full time work. Here's the dumbest part though. They said if they find me a 'suitable' full time job I am....wait for it.....EXPECTED TO LEAVE MY COURSE I'm expected to leave a course that will, hopefully, lead me onto university and into a better job 4 years down the line. There's bugger all part time jobs and even if I do get one it will leave me no better off, so if I do work I take away 16 vital hours of study so I can be absolutely no better off.

This new system is going to make it worse for everyone on benefits.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Agree there. What is needed is theraputic work for people like this and if people are not suited for theraputic work then some other treatment or activity should be found.

There is nothing to be gained from hassling the mad and the sad its counterproductive.

Charming.

 

[_angel_]

Well here's an example of just how stupid our current system and it's only going to get worse.

I'm long term unemployed, went through depression and, I admit, some idleness. I'm now doing an intensive access to HE course which is 13 weeks of teaching, but it's around double that in terms of the amount of study I need to do. The bullshit I had to go through to prove to them i'm on a course is unbelievable.

I can only work part time and I told them this but the JC expect me to look for full time work. Here's the dumbest part though. They said if they find me a 'suitable' full time job I am....wait for it.....EXPECTED TO LEAVE MY COURSE I'm expected to leave a course that will, hopefully, lead me onto university and into a better job 4 years down the line. There's bugger all part time jobs and even if I do get one it will leave me no better off, so if I do work I take away 16 vital hours of study so I can be absolutely no better off.

This new system is going to make it worse for everyone on benefits.

Short sightedness of trying to stop people studying and training, at the same time as promising studying and training for people out of work.

Insane.

 

[dynamicbaddog]

the reality is that no one will employ these people and, being on JSA, they will then be treated as a malingerer and lazy, probably sabotaging job interviews (by telling potential omployers of health problems for instance). End result: sanctions, no benefit, etc.

yes, that's what I was thinking. There's a massive headline on the front page of today's Standard (which uses the word 'workshy' to describe claimants) the Standard was quoting Purnell as saying there are half a million untaken jobs out there thus he's not going to back down on this round of benefit cuts. However even if this figure is correct I don't reckon that employers are going to be falling over themselves to employ people with a history of long term health issues
The whole thing is a farce

 

[Zachor]

Well here's an example of just how stupid our current system and it's only going to get worse.

I'm long term unemployed, went through depression and, I admit, some idleness. I'm now doing an intensive access to HE course which is 13 weeks of teaching, but it's around double that in terms of the amount of study I need to do. The bullshit I had to go through to prove to them i'm on a course is unbelievable.

I can only work part time and I told them this but the JC expect me to look for full time work. Here's the dumbest part though. They said if they find me a 'suitable' full time job I am....wait for it.....EXPECTED TO LEAVE MY COURSE I'm expected to leave a course that will, hopefully, lead me onto university and into a better job 4 years down the line. There's bugger all part time jobs and even if I do get one it will leave me no better off, so if I do work I take away 16 vital hours of study so I can be absolutely no better off.

This new system is going to make it worse for everyone on benefits.

This is a very good illustration of the iniquities of the way the benefit system is administered. You are actively working to improve yourself and your job prospects and because of this you can only get part time work. It is madness to punish people like yourselves while the lazy and undeserving sit on their arses in front of Trisha.

Its utter madness to punish people who are making an effort whilst rewarding the idle.

These reforms could have been so much better. The compulsory work aspect is in my opinion a step in the right direction but in my view the rules are too soft in some aspects and too harsh in others.

 

[_angel_]

yes, that's what I was thinking. There's a massive headline on the front page of today's Standard (which uses the word 'workshy' to describe claimants)

How long can they get away with this, when people are losing their jobs daily? ffs?

the Standard was quoting Purnell as saying there are half a million untaken jobs out there thus he's not going to back down on this round of benefit cuts. However even if this figure is correct I don't reckon that employers are going to be falling over themselves to employ people with a history of long term health issues
The whole thing is a farce

Half a million untaken jobs and about 2 million odd people going to be chasing them. Employers indeed aren't interested in taking people who've been out of work for long periods, let alone with health conditions.

 

[Zachor]

Charming.

Fair point wrong choice of words.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No I've just had a healthy dose of realism.

Ah, the "realism" gambit, as employed by every self-involved fucker who decides that idealism is too much bother.

I've lost count of the number of people who I've grown up with who due to extended periods on the dole have spiralled down in to booze and drug problems. I would say that most of these peoples problems stem from being treated as useless and the benefit rules compound this by not being flexible.

You miss the point.
You use your personal experience as an excuse for compulsion. You dress it up with coy anecdote and weasel words, but it's still compulsion.

I sometimes wonder how many of those booze and drug and mental illness casualties would either still be here or in better state fo mind if purposeful activities had been provided for them. I found that becuase of t he traumatic way I lost my job I treated the period on the suck as a rest which I'd earned at first but after a few months I found that I was spiralling down and it was only by being given a shove into activity that I started to be more myself again.

Your own experience is your own experience. It doesn't translate to being a generally-applicable rule for all people.

I don't want to punish people with work I want to see people helped with work.

And yet you will see people "punished with work" because they are "helped with work".

I really dont see whats halfwitted about that.

I know you don't.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes I heard him and I didn't like what he was saying, but sending offensive e-mails and wanting someone to kill him? What kind of a sick fucker are you?

A RIGHTEOUS "sick fucker", that's who he is!

 

[Zachor]

Ah, the "realism" gambit, as employed by every self-involved fucker who decides that idealism is too much bother.

I've done the idealism bit. Not only did it not work but ended up hurting me as well. I try to do the best I can to help others but I've no time anymore for any of the poltiical 'isms'. Pointless time wasting to be honest.

You miss the point.
You use your personal experience as an excuse for compulsion. You dress it up with coy anecdote and weasel words, but it's still compulsion.

I do use my own personal experience but don't we all. If compulsory work or training or counselling saves just ONE person from my own working class background from puking their life up in a gutter or getting so depressed they fill their house with gas and ignite it

Your own experience is your own experience. It doesn't translate to being a generally-applicable rule for all people.

I'm quite aware of this and the situation about who can and cannot work is a complex one so it will need a multiplicity of approaches and points of view. I've no interest in being a dictator even though I'd probably be a benevolent one .

And yet you will see people "punished with work" because they are "helped with work".

I know you don't.

Thats down to the individual. Some people need to have a kick up the arse and closely supervised ie work as a kind of punishment but there are many others (I'd say the majority) who need the sort of help that purposeful meaningful activitiy gives. Not everyone will need or should have for 'yellow jump suit' type compulsion.

 

[_angel_]

I've done the idealism bit. Not only did it not work but ended up hurting me as well. I try to do the best I can to help others but I've no time anymore for any of the poltiical 'isms'. Pointless time wasting to be honest.

The problem with rightwingers is their unbelievable arrogance that they, and only they live in the 'real world'. This is a good way of ignoring anything else anybody else says or does.

I do use my own personal experience but don't we all. If compulsory work or training or counselling saves just ONE person from my own working class background from puking their life up in a gutter or getting so depressed they fill their house with gas and ignite it

You really do use your own experiences of being depressed when out of work/ idle and extrapolate that to a huge number of people whom you know nothing about.

 

[Zachor]

The problem with rightwingers is their unbelievable arrogance that they, and only they live in the 'real world'. This is a good way of ignoring anything else anybody else says or does..

I never did say that other voices shouldn't be listened to just that the focus needs to change from maintaining people in poverty of expectation to building them up.

You really do use your own experiences of being depressed when out of work/ idle and extrapolate that to a huge number of people whom you know nothing about.

Personal experience is worth a thousand academic reports. I'm sick of seeing friends struggling with disabilities and caring responsibilities fucked over by the benefit system while the crafty professionally idle continue to be featherbedded. I'm afraid that you will find my views moderate compared to that expressed by the average bod in the street.

My views are not the same as others and I accept that but I dont' think its deniable that the current system is not only unsustainable but is damaging the very people that the benefit system perports to help.

Been there done it printed the tee shirt. That gives me more right to comment than others who haven't been there.

 

[treelover]

The figure of 500’000 job in the economy often mentioned is also misleading, many of these are ‘churn’ teachers waiting for posts, temps, etc.

 

[treelover]

just rang up the E/S, they should not be allowed to get away with such a headline, how can they generalise over 2 million people.

anyway prepared to contact the Press Complaints Commission?

 

[Awesome Wells]

Short sightedness of trying to stop people studying and training, at the same time as promising studying and training for people out of work.

Insane.

keeping people down = DWP

even though in the long run study: a) helps the uni make money (ie good for das economy) and b) enabled greater earnings and thus tax.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Fair point wrong choice of words.

and yet you continue to use poor word choices.

 

[Zachor]

and yet you continue to use poor word choices.

Like what?

 

[Awesome Wells]

How long can they get away with this, when people are losing their jobs daily? ffs?




Half a million untaken jobs and about 2 million odd people going to be chasing them. Employers indeed aren't interested in taking people who've been out of work for long periods, let alone with health conditions.

Don't forget that some (perhaps more) of these jobs will go to people already in work. It's total fiction to believe that employers operate some kind of social responsibility. Not every job at all currently vacant will be filled by one of the growing millions.

But then employers aren't beholden to the state and can basically do what they like; it's their market. Even at the best of times, they can always get away with choosing whomever they want.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Like what?

try this:

This is a very good illustration of the iniquities of the way the benefit system is administered. You are actively working to improve yourself and your job prospects and because of this you can only get part time work. It is madness to punish people like yourselves while the lazy and undeserving sit on their arses in front of Trisha.

Its utter madness to punish people who are making an effort whilst rewarding the idle.

These reforms could have been so much better. The compulsory work aspect is in my opinion a step in the right direction but in my view the rules are too soft in some aspects and too harsh in others.

 

[Zachor]

try this:

Whats wrong with saying that some people are undeserving and lazy? Its a fact of life some people are ponces and deserving of less than someone who strives. Its not aimed at those who are mentally or physically sick or disabled only at those who could do something but plainly choose not to.

We all make distinctions about who we feel are deserving or undeserving whether it be where we shop what charities we donate to what political parties we support etc etc.

Personally I feel that there are a whole lot more people who should be helped by being given training and purposeful activity and who would benefit from that.

For too long its been considered a sin to say that some people are lazy fuckers and shouldn't be entitled to the same as what those who strive do.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Who are you to say that another is undeserving? Unless you speak to prophets on mountain tops, you are in no position to judge.

You are as much a victim of this corrupt state as those you seek to denigrate.

 

[Zachor]

Who are you to say that another is undeserving? Unless you speak to prophets on mountain tops, you are in no position to judge.

I don't believe that I or any other individual should make such a decision it should be made by committee.

Although I wouild never advocate a return to the Workhouse system the system of Poor Law Boards did at least have the advantage that a panel made a decision on relief.

Sadly the board members were 'rate savers' rather than those with an active interest in improving their communities.

Maybe difficult decisions about whether someone is a malingerer or not should be made not by faceless DWP officials but by a panel of four people picked at random from the voters register as with juries.

You are as much a victim of this corrupt state as those you seek to denigrate.

Well I can't change the state I can only live within it or move.

 

[treelover]

Compass Campaign taking off, 600 comments, supporters, etc,

http://www.compassonline.org.uk/campaigns/comments.asp?n=3451&offset=0#comments

 

[_angel_]

I don't believe that I or any other individual should make such a decision it should be made by committee.


Maybe difficult decisions about whether someone is a malingerer or not should be made not by faceless DWP officials but by a panel of four people picked at random from the voters register as with juries.



Well I can't change the state I can only live within it or move.

No thanks. What's the difference between four people chosen at random and people who work for the DWP/ any of the private companies they'll be giving money to get people off their books.


You've already said these changes will only kick the genuine hard.. so why defend it?

 

[Zachor]

No thanks. What's the difference between four people chosen at random and people who work for the DWP/ any of the private companies they'll be giving money to get people off their books.

Much more likely to get an unbiased assessment from randoms. Thats why the jury system is such a good one. The problem with Poor Law boards were because of the electoral system it was really on ly those who were interested in saving money who got on them and they were very harsh towards the poor who approached them for relief.

You've already said these changes will only kick the genuine hard.. so why defend it?

Its a step in the right direction. Like I said I have reservations about the changes but somethings about it are right.

 

[_angel_]

Much more likely to get an unbiased assessment from randoms. Thats why the jury system is such a good one. The problem with Poor Law boards were because of the electoral system it was really on ly those who were interested in saving money who got on them and they were very harsh towards the poor who approached them for relief.



Its a step in the right direction. Like I said I have reservations about the changes but somethings about it are right.

Everything about it's wrong. Most especially since there are no jobs, but this isn't about getting people paid work.. just off their books and saving money.

You appear so determined to punish the "lazy fuckers" that you don't care about dragging a load of genuine people who are ill/ caring for people or their kids into punitive workfare.