james purnell hate thread

[treelover]

Not many people are aware of this, but there were indeed 'work camps' in the UK in the 30's situated in the Fens

 

[Zachor]

or just stick everybody into workcamps and be fucking done with it

Hmmmmmmm! ........................................not really

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

@PT

LP insiders think Purnell is just about ambition, if it looks like the reforms are backfiring, then we will reign them in

i really hope that you're right but i'm unconvinced at the mo, i think he's spoiling for a fight over this, to prove that he can win the difficult battles - his ambition is what is driving this, along with brown's puritanical obsession with work for all.

 

[panpete]

Tough. If you're not prepared to look after everybody else's children for minimum wage then you shouldn't have any of your own. It's time to kick selfishness into touch and roll out more community spirit. If you can look after two kids, you can look after 20.

hhahahahahahahah effoff

 

[panpete]

The first thing that needs to change in the benefits system is the use of 'sanctions', ie withdrawing all of someone's benefits at the drop of a hat upon the merest suspicion that they are being 'idle' or 'playing the system'. As things stand the smallest violation of a JCP diktat can leave a claimant penniless for weeks, even months, on end. In no other sector of society is 'guilty until proven innocent' an acceptable way of dealing with transgressions, but this is exactly how the worms at the jobcentre behave towards claimants. Once sanctioned there is a lengthy and complex appeals process that doesn't allow a claimant to simply take the matter up with the individual responsible for placing the sanction on them in the first place. Even prisoners know they'll get three meals a day, but a sanctioned benefits claimant has no such certainty in their life. This is not an acceptable way to treat people, no matter how idle you consider them to be.

The state of the benefits system tells us a lot about the state of our society and the relationship between the public, the state and the economy. The contempt with which the unemployed, even those with a cast iron excuse for being unemployed (sick relatives needing 24 hour care, severe disabillities etc) are treated arises from the total subservience of human life to economic forces. A human being who is not sufficiently economically productive is less than nothing in the eyes of the state, and increasingly in the eyes of other members of the public. It's not a question of work ethic, nobody vicitimises rich people who sit on their arses all day long because they (allegedly) are good for the economy. And even a belief in work ethic doesn't stand up to much scrutiny in our society, considering the huge amount of quote unquote work people do that has absolutly no purpose whatsoever besides propping up the big consumption machine in some form or other. I'd rather be idle on my own terms than spend my days shovelling coal into the furnace that is slowly destroying everything I hold dear in the world. People are people, no matter what their situation they deserve the means to live and care for their families without coercion or fear or pointless toil. This should be the foundation stone not only of the benefits system but of the whole of society, for once we decide that numbers are more important than people (numbers which ostensibly exist to serve the people i nthe first place) then we failed utterly and no longer have the right to describe ourselves as 'civilised', for we are no better than a barbarian making a human sacrifice to some unseen, elemental force.

What an uttelrly, excellent post.
Thank you spooky

 

[panpete]

Looks like it is going to be much worse, s/parents back to work when the child is one, Brown is clearly determined, in his view, to 'grasp the nettle' of welfare reform, we are going to have US stle system before long, with all that entails, thousands more in prison, etc.


I also think it is basically because in other areas, NL have run out of steam, and want to look pro-active.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/dec/02/benefit-cuts-single-parents

Not sounding dramatic here, but there are correlations between too-young-kids shoved in daycare, and psychopathy.
Its related to the attachment theory of john bowlby, who cited that children who do not form an adequate bond with a primary caregiver in the early years deveolp. Gooogle psychopathy and daycare.

 

[panpete]

Have you actually read this report? It isn't half as bad in many ways as is being reported you know.

With sanctions, Gregg recommends that sanctions aren't imposed for a first "offence" which is less harsh than the current system for example. He also proposes a series of escalating sanctions thereafter, as is currently the case anyway, with time-based sanctions for four or more breaches of conditions.

And with ESA claimants, he recommends no mandatory work related activity at the outset, which is less than the recent Green Paper proposes. If you want to get people onside with these issues, it is important imo to be properly representative of what is on the table, otherwise you will dilute support.

No sanctions for the sick, end of.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

No sanctions for the sick, end of.

They are there already though, they want to make them more all-encompassing, my point is that the pragmatic approach would be to highlight where the Gregg report takes a different approach to that which Government wish to pursue to ameliorate the worst aspects of that approach.

Every political party has previously agreed with the conditionality approach, hence the smooth introduction of ESA. Fwiw, I agree with you on sanctions inre: sick and disabled people, but they're here and shouting about how unfair that is hasn't got anyone anywhere I'm afraid.

 

[LJo]

Not sounding dramatic here, but there are correlations between too-young-kids shoved in daycare, and psychopathy.
Its related to the attachment theory of john bowlby, who cited that children who do not form an adequate bond with a primary caregiver in the early years deveolp. Gooogle psychopathy and daycare.

Erm, Bowlby's original attachment theory has long been discredited, and I'm rather suspicious of these 'correlations'.

I don't want to get off topic here, but the last thing us stressed mothers trying to earn a living and bring up our kids the best we can is yet more people telling us that putting our kids in nursery three days a week will turn them into Hannibal Lecter.

We need more and better childcare for those who need it, AND sufficient support for a mother or father to stay at home, if they choose to do it. Demonising either side will really, really not help.

Apologies for derail but I really didn't want that point to go unanswered.

 

[panpete]

That type of attitude is what gets psychos like JP in power.
Since being retired, I have been anything but Idle.
I have discovered, and put my talents to good use, although not for money.
I need the unsanctioned help of the government through being ill after 20years of work.
I may not need it permanently, but to put me back in a place which made me ill, reeks of barbarism.
Those I turned to for help now want to make me ill again.
Even my mum didnt shove me off her tit, because she was sick of feeding babies, she weaned me when I was ready. And she is hard, but not as hard as JP.

 

[Blagsta]

I didnt say that. I said those who chose to do fuck all or fuck around shouldn't gt the same money as others who don't make such negative choices.

I didn't say that those with big social social problems are undeserving. Those with such problems do need to be looked after.

Yes you did "I also thought of the people whose families break up becuase of housing problems who get bugger all because the councils etc are prioritising those who are underserving."

Councils only house people who are "priority need". That is, people with children who would otherwise be on the streets and people with severe mental health problems or physical health problems. In your eyes, these people are "undeserving".

You really are scum.

 

[Blagsta]

Not quite. I spent time as a bludger (not by any fault of my own) and found that being unemployed itself was damaging and nearly led me down paths that make me think looking back on it that I had a lucky escape.

I gained value and self esteem via work for my community and wish I had been pushed towards this route earlier.
I want other people to benefit from this increase inself esteem and saw with my own eyes how easy it is for a period of unemployment to turn in to a life governed by oblivion by Tennants Super.

You're shit scared and want to make others feel the same 'cos you can't tolerate it.

 

[Blagsta]

Erm, Bowlby's original attachment theory has long been discredited, and I'm rather suspicious of these 'correlations'.

I don't want to get off topic here, but the last thing us stressed mothers trying to earn a living and bring up our kids the best we can is yet more people telling us that putting our kids in nursery three days a week will turn them into Hannibal Lecter.

We need more and better childcare for those who need it, AND sufficient support for a mother or father to stay at home, if they choose to do it. Demonising either side will really, really not help.

Apologies for derail but I really didn't want that point to go unanswered.

Eh? Discredited by who? Impludo is being melodramatic and OTT for sure. However, attachment theory has not been discredited. It has been refined and altered over the years (like any theory does), but to say it's been discredited is just not true. It's currently part of social work and mental health thinking and there have been many psychological experiments backing it up.

 

[panpete]

Eh? Discredited by who? Impludo is being melodramatic and OTT for sure. However, attachment theory has not been discredited. It has been refined and altered over the years (like any theory does), but to say it's been discredited is just not true. It's currently part of social work and mental health thinking and there have been many psychological experiments backing it up.

wtf.
Where's your kids during the day.
Ah well, time will tell.

 

[Blagsta]

wtf.
Where's your kids during the day.
Ah well, time will tell.

You're a bit full of yourself tonight!

 

[Blagsta]

Join the Facebook group James Purnell is a tosser

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=33169189344

 

[brasicritique]

In other words, the nuLabor filth are now promoting the blind idolatry of money above human values.

as are the bbc by setting up people who claim benefit in order to generate bile on the hys section

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7746174.stm

 

[treelover]

What is the BBC upto, in terms of welfare reforms, they are acting like the RW tabloids, someone should get a petition together about the way they portray claimants.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

What is the BBC upto, in terms of welfare reforms, they are acting like the RW tabloids, someone should get a petition together about the way they portray claimants.

It was pretty bad today on R4. They had Purnell on several times as I mentioned, unopposed, and then they had a big long section about these marvellous foreign systems that are being referred to as bases, though actually appear not to have much relationship to this government's proposals at all. (For instance, the "Danish system" that's said so much about, I heard can pay people 1600 quid a month when they're on benefits, plus the Danes have a 37 hour week, better childcare etc etc.)

This is not unusual for Radio 4 whenever the benefits system comes up in the news. They will attack the government on, say, Iraq, but when it comes to the "undeserving poor" they're right in there putting the boot in.

 

[treelover]

Exactly, i have been having an ongoing feud with them over this for two years, whats needed is a protest at BBC HQ

 

[_angel_]

It was pretty bad today on R4. They had Purnell on several times as I mentioned, unopposed, and then they had a big long section about these marvellous foreign systems that are being referred to as bases, though actually appear not to have much relationship to this government's proposals at all. (For instance, the "Danish system" that's said so much about, I heard can pay people 1600 quid a month when they're on benefits, plus the Danes have a 37 hour week, better childcare etc etc.)

This is not unusual for Radio 4 whenever the benefits system comes up in the news. They will attack the government on, say, Iraq, but when it comes to the "undeserving poor" they're right in there putting the boot in.

Are any of you actually surprised?

 

[_angel_]

The first thing that needs to change in the benefits system is the use of 'sanctions', ie withdrawing all of someone's benefits at the drop of a hat upon the merest suspicion that they are being 'idle' or 'playing the system'. As things stand the smallest violation of a JCP diktat can leave a claimant penniless for weeks, even months, on end. In no other sector of society is 'guilty until proven innocent' an acceptable way of dealing with transgressions, but this is exactly how the worms at the jobcentre behave towards claimants. Once sanctioned there is a lengthy and complex appeals process that doesn't allow a claimant to simply take the matter up with the individual responsible for placing the sanction on them in the first place. Even prisoners know they'll get three meals a day, but a sanctioned benefits claimant has no such certainty in their life. This is not an acceptable way to treat people, no matter how idle you consider them to be.

The state of the benefits system tells us a lot about the state of our society and the relationship between the public, the state and the economy. The contempt with which the unemployed, even those with a cast iron excuse for being unemployed (sick relatives needing 24 hour care, severe disabillities etc) are treated arises from the total subservience of human life to economic forces. A human being who is not sufficiently economically productive is less than nothing in the eyes of the state, and increasingly in the eyes of other members of the public. It's not a question of work ethic, nobody vicitimises rich people who sit on their arses all day long because they (allegedly) are good for the economy. And even a belief in work ethic doesn't stand up to much scrutiny in our society, considering the huge amount of quote unquote work people do that has absolutly no purpose whatsoever besides propping up the big consumption machine in some form or other. I'd rather be idle on my own terms than spend my days shovelling coal into the furnace that is slowly destroying everything I hold dear in the world. People are people, no matter what their situation they deserve the means to live and care for their families without coercion or fear or pointless toil. This should be the foundation stone not only of the benefits system but of the whole of society, for once we decide that numbers are more important than people (numbers which ostensibly exist to serve the people i nthe first place) then we failed utterly and no longer have the right to describe ourselves as 'civilised', for we are no better than a barbarian making a human sacrifice to some unseen, elemental force.

Good point.

 

[Awesome Wells]

they say the measure of a civilised society is in how it treats it's prisoners.

Get out of work and face a future so uncertain you won't know where your next meal is coming from - so long as you don't break the law.

Perhaps they want to shift the problem over to the criminal justice side of things, then they can be seen to be tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime (which would be ironic).

 

[panpete]

JP would have to kick his own arse then in that case

 

[_angel_]

Exactly, i have been having an ongoing feud with them over this for two years, whats needed is a protest at BBC HQ

The BBC finally realise unemployment may not be the unemployed's fault:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7736303.stm

There is concern among some experts that ignoring the core issues and pressurising jobless people - for example with welfare reforms - will not only be a waste of time given the number of jobs available, but could further damage the mental wellbeing of individuals already demoralised.

"If you have four million or so people chasing a few hundred thousand jobs, it goes without saying that putting pressure on the unemployed to look harder is not going to work," says psychologist Dr David Fryer, of Stirling University.

In the past few years it has been harder to get funding for research on unemployment, giving the impression people felt the problem had gone away, adds Dr Fryer.

And what media coverage there has been often portrays the jobless as being to blame for their problems, even to be envied in the way we might envy the "idle rich", he adds.

"In general the media has not done unemployment a service. The unemployed are portrayed as social outcasts who don't share the moral and ethical values of the rest of us."

It is interesting that unis haven't been able to get funding into researching unemployment -- I wonder why that might be??

The straightforward point about millions of people seeking shrinking vacancies is obvious, why only now is it being mentioned??

 

[treelover]

Over 50 academics, some very senior, well known, have signed the petition against the reforms, i think you will now see a fair bit challenging the neo-liberal paradigm of welfare reform, many of whom have seemed to be sleepwalking the last ten years!


wonder if Danny has signed it yet?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Are any of you actually surprised?

Well, no, they do it all the time and have done for ages, as treelover says. You're about as likely to get even a proper "two sides of the story" piece on R4 as you are to get something not up the arse of the military on News24. It's still bloody annoying.

 

[treelover]

DISABLED PEOPLES' DIRECT ACTION NETWORK

PRESS RELEASE (3/12/2008)

DISABLED PEOPLE TAKE DIRECT ACTION IN CENTRAL LONDON TO PROTEST AND DRAW
ATTENTION TO NEW BENEFIT HARASSMENT

Instead of celebrating the International day of Disabled People today, we -
and our supporters - are in central London protesting against the
government's
"Employment Support Allowance" (ESA) and "Work Capability Assessment" (WCA)
which are replacing "Incapacity Benefit" (IB). This punitive economic attack
will hit thousands of the poorest in society, forcing them further into
poverty and a discriminatory job market, while thousands more are losing
their jobs due to the deepening recession.

A DAN spokesperson said: "If the government were sincere in their attempts
to help Disabled Claimants, they wouldn't be cutting benefits or adding new
hoops in the process. They would target discriminatory employers and fully
appreciate the difficulties those with Invisible and Fluctuating conditions
will have in the job market. This is a cynical exercise designed to move the
goal-posts in assessments and ensure that many will no longer qualify for
the benefits they have been legitimately receiving."

* Political and media spin - suggesting there has been significant
increases in Incapacity Benefit claims - is misleading. The DWP confirms
there has actually been a drop in IB claims since 2000.

* A much higher percentage of Disabled People than previously are now living
in the community and claiming benefits, rather than being institutionalised.

* A long hours / short breaks culture (instead of providing flexi-time or
work from home) makes it harder for Disabled People and those with medical
conditions to cope with employment.

* There is a lack of access to meaningful education and training for
Disabled People, leading to a lack of qualifications, job skills and
therefore decent jobs with adequate incomes.

* ESA and the WCA is an even more punitive benefit and assessment than the
previous procedure (IB). Claimants who fail the new assessment will lose
entitlement to Disability Living Allowance (DLA) as well as ESA.

CONTACTS (ON ACTION):

Barry: 07508 634 228

Clair: 07970 959 791

FOR PHOTOS (ON ACTION):

Nick: 07956 682 830

PRESS CONTACTS:

Stella: 07904 935 413

Mike: 07956 856 060

 

[andrewdroid]

They say that if a traffic warden was murdered then there wouldnt be a jury in the country who would convict
Im thinking that if somone shot this bag o shite it would be the same

 

[LJo]

Eh? Discredited by who? Impludo is being melodramatic and OTT for sure. However, attachment theory has not been discredited. It has been refined and altered over the years (like any theory does), but to say it's been discredited is just not true. It's currently part of social work and mental health thinking and there have been many psychological experiments backing it up.

I was under the impression that Bowlby's original theory (vital for child to develop attachment to mother, otherwise child will turn into psycho) had been admitted to be incorrect by Bowlby himself, who amended it to emphasis the importance of a child developing an attachment to a primary caregiver (who may or may not be the mother and can indeed be a figure such as a childminder.) Happy to be corrected if that is not the case.