Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

[CyberRose]

Don't know if this post is better on this thread or the other but here you are anyway:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10728124&postcount=31

 

[sihhi]

He was Kahanist from his youth into adulthood, then Likud, then followed Sharon into Kadima. He was never able to shed his earlier ultra-right Kahanist programming though. He was taken by Kahane Chai group with lots of other young orthodox kids from NYC in USA into a training camp in the mountains, and militarised whilst he was still a child to fight for Israel.

I almost feel sorry for him now.

He went to one of these?!



It's good self-defence but the propaganda there must fuck you up.

 

[Spymaster]

the royal navy are never going to go up against a country who's military continues to be largely funded and equipped by the US ..... <snip>

You miss my point (but I won't insult you because of it).

The statement was not a suggestion of what is likely or even possible, but an indication of the level of firepower that I'd like to see deployed (deem necessary) against the IDF to successfully run the blockade.

 

[free spirit]

I believe it was.

yes, but then you have acknowledged that you have zero experience of such situations.

had this raid had full Israeli cabinet approval, it's entirely reasonable to assume it would have been approved only with the proviso that deadly force was not to be used, as they'd have wanted to avoid the major international incident that this has become.

The IDF is a relatively well structured organisation, and had the orders been to avoid deadly force, and the orders had come from the full cabinet, then they'd likely have had to go back to the full cabinet for further orders providing that their soldiers lives weren't in immediate danger. Had they done this, it's likely that the full cabinet would have negotiated the release of the prisoners rather than authorise an immediate deadly assault on the boat.

Those on the boat were not to know that the raid had been secretly planned and approved by hardline elements in the Israeli government, sidelining those voices who would have insisted on such levels of restraint being shown.

These are the sort of calculations that those of us who are / have been involved in direct action / confrontational protests sometimes have to make in order to stand up to the overwhelming forces ranged against us, and make our point in a way that's difficult to be ignored. Sometimes it goes badly, resulting in the death, injury or imprisonment of those making that stand, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the decision to make the stand was wrong.

In death, maybe it's possible that these brave Turkish men will have achieved more than the ever could have hoped to achieve to end the blockade in life. They have my total respect and admiration for their efforts, and willingness to stand up and defend themselves against apparently overwhelming odds for a cause that they and I believe to be just.

If the blockade isn't ended by the time of the next floatila, I predict that it almost certainly will be after it, as the next floatilla is likely to be far too big for the Israelis to stop. I'd certainly seriously consider being on it.

 

[Spymaster]

Don't know if this post is better on this thread or the other but here you are anyway:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10728124&postcount=31

Don't be cross-threading from there. That thread's taken a distinctly Jazzz-like turn!

 

[CyberRose]

Don't be cross-threading from there. That thread's taken a distinctly Jazzz-like turn!

Well it is the weekend, I'm allowed to cross-thread if I want to!

 

[free spirit]

You miss my point (but I won't insult you because of it).

The statement was not a suggestion of what is likely or even possible, but an indication of the level of firepower that I'd like to see deployed (deem necessary) against the IDF to successfully run the blockade.

ok, but I like to deal in reality, not cloud cuckoo land, as I find it tends to have more direct impact on the real world.

the Royal Navy are never going to deploy against an Israeli blockade in reality, not matter how much you might want it to.

the only way they'd ever be likely to consider it would be to protect a civilian flotilla containing large numbers of UK registered boats and a lot of UK citizens, following a major incident against UK registered ships and citizens on a previous floatilla, eg the sinking of one or more resulting in the deaths of tens / hundreds.

It's possible the Turkish navy might be considering such a move after 9 of their citizens have been killed, but if this does happen, then it would be as a result of the brave actions of the activists who's actions you've spent most of the thread condemning / calling stupid, rather than as a result of a desire to fulfil your wishes.

besides, I've no wish for this to escalate into actual armed conflict, or for Gaza to end up as some sort of British protectorate with supplies having to be brought in via Royal Navy protected convoys. I want an end to the blockade, normalisation of trade with Gaza, and recognition of their democratically elected government so that the Gazan people can begin to attempt to get their lives back to some vague semblance of normality, not another misguided colonial adventure.


btw - FYI I consider the phrase 'stupid gungho tits' to be an insult, so please don't act all hurt if I chuck 1/3 of it back at you.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

he started posting some shit claiming fascism was a good thing.

No he didn't. There was a discussion about the definition of fascism, and some fairly refined definitions came up, and he said something like 'if fascism means love of country etc, then I'm a fascist'.

And of course the crowd jumped on him: you're a fascist??!!

And then it was simply a matter of skewering him into the ground until the mods showed up and banned the 'fascist'.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

if you play the role of tag team partner with JC2/3 you may find that his and your precise take on the arguement get somewhat blurred in the readers mind.

I suppose it does if you're hard of thinking. I have no difficulty separating you from toggle or spion or danny la rouge.

 

[Pickman's model]

There used to be an actual live Israeli who posted here named Rachamim, but he was eventually hounded out the door.

The opinion of an actual live Israeli isn't really truly wanted around these parts, you see.

yes we only want to hear from good israelis, who are rarely in a position to post.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Now, now; more disingenuity. Firstly, you have already heard me give two examples where colonisers have behaved as badly. Secondly, it is not the precursors to the current Israeli state who are in question here; it is the current batch.

That's not what I asked. I asked if you put different groups of refugees into the situation the jews/israelis found themselves in, would the different groups do the same things that the Israelis did.

In other words, plop half a million spaniards in palestine in 1947. Or Chechens. Or Somalis. You name the group.

 

[Pickman's model]

That's not what I asked. I asked if you put different groups of refugees into the situation the jews/israelis found themselves in, would the different groups do the same things that the Israelis did.

In other words, plop half a million spaniards in palestine in 1947. Or Chechens. Or Somalis. You name the group.

palestinians. what would they have done?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Johnny, please read some history books. Even bad ones. But at least read something.

What are you playing at?

The phrase Aliyah Bet describes the movement of Jewish refugees, many of them survivors of the Holocaust, not permitted to enter Palestine by the British authorities. Initiated by Zionist activists as the urgency for Jews to leave Europe intensified, this phenomenon was referred to by the British as "illegal" immigration. By 1948, well over 100,000 people had taken this route, including more than 70,000 Holocaust survivors.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005776

The internment of Jewish refugees--many of them Holocaust survivors--turned world opinion against British policy in Palestine. The report of the Anglo-American Commission of Inquiry in January 1946 led U.S. president Harry Truman to pressure Britain into admitting 100,000 Jewish refugees into Palestine.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005459

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

28 children left fatherless because of the murderous actions of the IDF and the Israeli State. I simply despair at times.

What's to be done about these monsters?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

he seems to be insinuating that the Jewish immigration began after the creation of the state of Israel. .

Are you stupid?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

at least he's avoided the 'self-hating' label (as far as i can see). Amazes me how many non Jews try to tell Jews they aren't proper Jews unless they define themselves as Zionist.

Funny. I wasn't even here, but you manage to create a whole straw man, replete with ideas I don't hold, and things I didn't say, and they you have at it.

I suppose it beats giving any thought to the things that I actually say.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

us.



But I disagree with most of what JC has posted.

Just out of curiosity: what have I said on this thread that you disagree with?

I've said the boarding was illegal.

Apart from that, most of my posts have been asking the anti zionists how the zionism situation should be solved.

 

[Blagsta]

stop feeding the troll

 

[Jonti]

I suppose it beats giving any thought to the things that I actually say.

You think about what you say?!

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I think he's got this arse-about-face..

What is it that I have arse about face?

 

[Pickman's model]

What are you playing at?



http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005776




http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005459

i would have thought that the period of REAL urgency for jews to leave 'europe' would have been before the establishment of the death camps.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Does that obviate the possibility of them? Nope..

A situation where rockets, even ones with bad or nonexistent guidance systems, were being fired into Brixton from some specified area, every day, or week or month, would not be tolerated.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

We're all the brothers of apes.

How about pigs?

 

[Pickman's model]

How about pigs?

someone's got to be related to the police.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

No he wasn't.

Bullshit, as usual. The fact that his self-confessedly hard-right views were virulently disagreed with doesn't equate to them not being wanted, and only a dishonest person (that'd be you) would attempt to claim that this was the case.

Ask yourself: which posters will take a position that goes against the standard anti zionist doctrine that is most accepted here? You won't need the fingers of both hands to count them.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Polite, my arse. He may have couched his insults somewhat, but you'd have to have been blind (and, if you happened to be a Jewish poster, culturally ignorant) not to have seen the many barbs he threw.

Imagine that. A U75 poster who was insulting, and who threw barbs.

Lordy be.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You do realise that Johnny is a fan of Bernard Lewis, right? )

But...........you said I hadn't read any books?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8346017&postcount=40

it simply means "extreme patriotism." Most happen to find THAT to be an admirable attribute, not soemthing to denigrate and belittle

.

No, the thing is, it doesn't mean that at all and you are banned permanently for your relentless promotion of it, now.

There it is. He makes up his own idiosyncratic definition of fascism, and says he agrees with that [his own definition].

The response is, it means something else. You're banned.

He wasn't espousing the bad definition that Crispy is familiar with. But he's banned nonetheless.

Oh well. That's one less poster who isn't happy with the party line. Back to the circle jerk.

 

[Pickman's model]

Back to the circle jerk.

you're not saying you're a wanker?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

When two people are surrounded by a baying mob, they're likely to stand back-to-back, regardless of whether or not they agree with each other!

Once again, I'm interested in hearing what it is I've said that you disagree with.

I'm assuming that you aren't simply trying to back out of this, and get back into the favour of the group, by distancing yourself from me, thereby throwing me under the bus?