Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

[Fedayn]

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick.

If so then lf has my apologies.

 

[little_legs]

Fuck right off you loathsome fuck.... What a fucking scummy little comparison, deliberately trying to link the aid convoy with murderous pirates.

i am trying to say that idf acted like the fucking pirates. piss off.

 

[Fedayn]

I suppose being able to smell MIT is different from knowing something.

I would say so yes. Though we needn't smell anything to know you are an apologist for murderers.

 

[Blagsta]

If so then JC has my apologies.

That wasn't jc

 

[Fedayn]

That wasn't jc

I know...

 

[DotCommunist]

How are people not getting the international waters bit? You are not allowed to board a vessel on such waters. It is straight up piracy. The ensuing massacre, which is what it was, is entirely the fault of the masked pirates.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I would say so yes. Though we needn't smell anything to know you are an apologist for murderers.

In order to know that, you also have to have the ability to read words in my posts that aren't there.

 

[Sesquipedalian]

LOL,
At the clashing of the ego's,
And the chaos,
This Thread,
Has descended into.

 

[Blagsta]

In order to know that, you also have to have the ability to read words in my posts that aren't there.

We all saw what was there.

 

[agricola]

I haven't checked: were the fatalities made that way with paintball guns?

It appears that people were shot, but the troops definately (well, according to the Israelis anyway) landed on the boat wielding paintball guns. Hardly an "armada of hate", is it?

 

[agricola]

How are people not getting the international waters bit? You are not allowed to board a vessel on such waters. It is straight up piracy. The ensuing massacre, which is what it was, is entirely the fault of the masked pirates.

Actually its not piracy, because the IDF were acting as the agents of a state and not on their own behalf.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

from the israeli perspective they are allowed to blockade anyone in the international waters who represents a geniune threat. as long as they can prove this to the un security council, they are off the hook <snip>

Please cite the relevant international law or treaty that supports this claim.

 

[Fedayn]

In order to know that, you also have to have the ability to read words in my posts that aren't there.

What you wrote is pretty clear....

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

We all saw what was there.

Are you all in a room there together then, or is it....just you?

 

[DotCommunist]

Actually its not piracy, because the IDF were acting as the agents of a state and not on their own behalf.

So technically an act of war then? Given that they have shot to death about 15-20 turks one would think murdering another countries civilians on the high seas might count as such.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

What you wrote is pretty clear....

Apparently not, because you seem to have it ass over teakettle.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Well, this has been fun!

But, work beckons yet again.....

 

[quimcunx]

So technically an act of war then? Given that they have shot to death about 15-20 turks one would think murdering another countries civilians on the high seas might count as such.

According to a link on an earlier post either:

They were acting on behalf of the state in international waters and it was an act of war against Turkey.

Or

They were acting against orders of the state in which case the ship counts as Turkey and they can be tried for murder under Turkish laws.

 

[Fedayn]

A nice line in innuendo, blaming the victims and arguing they knew what was coming so can't complain.... Nice.... real nice...

I haven't seen into the hold of that ship. Have you?

You approach a police blockade, and as you approach, the police warn you via bullhorn to stop or they will shoot.

You hear them, but continue toward them. What conclusions can be drawn from your actions in continuing in the face of the warning?

One thing, though. We've seen demonstrated that there are people who will attach bombs to themselves in furtherance of a cause. They become martyrs. Is is so difficult a stretch to think that individuals on that ship were prepared to become martyrs in furtherance of a cause, and thus were fully prepared to sail into the guns, in spite of repeated warnings?

 

[1%er]

How are people not getting the international waters bit? You are not allowed to board a vessel on such waters. It is straight up piracy. The ensuing massacre, which is what it was, is entirely the fault of the masked pirates.

Just to clear up the legal position

A word on the legal position, which is very plain. To attack a foreign flagged vessel in international waters is illegal. It is not piracy, as the Israeli vessels carried a military commission. It is rather an act of illegal warfare.

Also taken from the site someone helpfully linked to above

Because the incident took place on the high seas does not mean however that international law is the only applicable law. The Law of the Sea is quite plain that, when an incident takes place
on a ship on the high seas (outside anybody's territorial waters) the applicable law is that of the flag state of the ship on which the incident occurred. In legal terms, the Turkish ship was Turkish territory.

There are therefore two clear legal possibilities.

Possibility one is that the Israeli commandos were acting on behalf of the government of Israel in killing the activists on the ships. In that case Israel is in a position of war with Turkey, and the act falls under international jurisdiction as a war crime.

Possibility two is that, if the killings were not authorised Israeli military action, they were acts of murder under Turkish jurisdiction. If Israel does not consider itself in a position of war with Turkey, then it must hand over the commandos involved for trial in Turkey under Turkish law.

In brief, if Israel and Turkey are not at war, then it is Turkish law which is applicable to what happened on the ship. It is for Turkey, not Israel, to carry out any inquiry or investigation into events and to initiate any prosecutions. Israel is obliged to hand over indicted personnel for prosecution.

 

[agricola]

So technically an act of war then? Given that they have shot to death about 15-20 turks one would think murdering another countries civilians on the high seas might count as such.

As far as can be established (from Murray earlier), offences that occur on a flagged vessel on the high seas should only fall under the jurisdiction of the flag-country, and no state apart from the flag country can seize and arrest a flagged vessel on the high seas.

Whether it is an act of war is something for the Turks to decide, though its worth pointing out part of the NATO treaty brought in when the Turks joined (emphasis added by myself):

Article 2

If the Republic of Turkey becomes a Party to the North Atlantic Treaty, Article 6 of the Treaty shall, as from the date of the deposit by the Government of the Republic of Turkey of its instruments of accession with the Government of the United States of America, be modified to read as follows:

For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:....


....2. on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in whicH occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.

 

[janeb]

Thread's dead, baby, thread's dead.

Like the 9 (or 19? Have we had confirmation either way?) activists.

Thanks, because that really helps those of us on here who have friends on the flottila and have no idea as to where or how they are.

 

[gavman]

That is extreme paranoia. Do you think that anyone outside the boards has any interest whatsoever in what is posted?

well we seem to pop up on newsnight and channel four news fairly regularly, but they are just minority local news outlets with no wider bearing on the discourse

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

As far as can be established (from Murray earlier), offences that occur on a flagged vessel on the high seas should only fall under the jurisdiction of the flag-country, and no state apart from the flag country can seize and arrest a flagged vessel on the high seas.

Whether it is an act of war is something for the Turks to decide, though its worth pointing out part of the NATO treaty brought in when the Turks joined (emphasis added by myself):

turks are pretty angry about it all, from what i saw earlier on.

 

[little_legs]

Please cite the relevant international law or treaty that supports this claim.

article 42 of the un charter

“ Should the Security Council consider that measures provided for in Article 41 would be inadequate or have proved to be inadequate, it may take such action by air, sea, or land forces as may be necessary to maintain or restore international peace and security. Such action may include demonstrations, blockade, and other operations by air, sea, or land forces of Members of the United Nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapter_VII_of_the_United_Nations_Charter



the view here has a probably a pro israel bias... but the guy is a lawyer: http://standpointmag.co.uk/node/3110

 

[Bernie Gunther]

turks are pretty angry about it all, from what i saw earlier on.

Turks were already pretty fucking furious about some sort of diplomatic insult a month or two ago.

 

[Blagsta]

A nice line in innuendo, blaming the victims and arguing they knew what was coming so can't complain.... Nice.... real nice...

Typical jc behaviour really. Post a load of "controversial" (on urban) stuff then deny it and play victim. Very passive aggressive. The comparison with sas is very apt.

 

[gavman]

There definately appears to be a pattern forming.

revenge of the 'timely development'

 

[ChrisFilter]

Apparently footage is gonna be released that shows the IDF getting a pretty horrific beating before retaliating. It's going to get messy.

This might already be common knowledge, just passing on something from a mate in the know.

 

[toggle]

Typical jc behaviour really. Post a load of "controversial" (on urban) stuff then deny it and play victim. Very passive aggressive. The comparison with sas is very apt.

the crap he's come out with wasn't exactly supprising