Israel and hezbollah after the exploding pagers
- Thread starter Pickman's model
- Start date
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
The other thing about international law/ agreements on war/ armed conflict is that its something that changes over time.
Its not a neutral thing that somehow above the fray so to speak.
It could be that an attack like this gets normalised. As did previously extra judicial killings / targeted assassination.
This ends up be "customary law"
Its not a neutral thing that somehow above the fray so to speak.
It could be that an attack like this gets normalised. As did previously extra judicial killings / targeted assassination.
This ends up be "customary law"
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
This exchange began with you telling DRD that you didn't think he was correct (wrt indiscriminate) in post #108.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
Geography again.
There's currently a buffer zone in northern Israel - it's, in military terms, tiny and woefully ineffective, but it's 50,000+ people.
Israel's population is about 10 million, so 50,000 living in hotels - most of them for nearly a year now - is a lot. In UK terms it would be 350,000 people - more than the entire population of Northumbria.
The same applies in both the West Bank and Gaza - there's just nowhere to go - there just isn't land where people can live going spare so you could create effective buffer zones - and an effective buffer zone between Hezbollah and Israel would put Israel in Saudi Arabia, and Lebanon in Bulgaria.
So they either make peace, or they fight it out to point of exhaustion.
AnnO'Neemus
Is so vanilla
Sorry for not being clearer, that's what I meant, ie creating a buffer zone on the Lebanese side of the border. The buffer zone is currently on the Israeli side of the border, because Israeli civilians withdrew and around 60,000 homes are currently vacant, but now Israel wants to move the buffer zone into the Lebanese side of the border, to drive the Lebanese population out of the land just north of the border.
It's sort of a land grab, because it's what's happened bit by bit to the borders of the Palestinian occupied territories, which have seen Palestinian territory shrink and shrink and shrink. It's like over time it becomes 'facts on the ground'.
And an Israeli former general effectively confirmed Israel's intention to move the buffer zone into the Lebanese side of the border on R4 World At One today. Sarah Montague was interviewing him, because the Israeli former general had been meeting with Keir Starmer today.*
*Interesting that Starmer met him in the middle of the Labour Party conference (!) - I wonder if he also met any Palestinian or Lebanese representatives?
It was also interesting how Sarah Montague was saying something about the West Bank and referred to "settler viole... activities" ie she was saying settler violence, which is what it is, but then 'corrected' herself, ie toed the Israeli propaganda line on the issue.
AnnO'Neemus
Is so vanilla
So how many Lebanese people living just north of the border is it acceptable to kill/displace in order to create the buffer zone that Israel wants?
And why are Israeli displacements or deaths 'victims' in this kind of scenario, whereas Lebanese/Palestinian people are collateral damage, they've only got themselves and Hezbollah/Hamas to blame.
Not having a go, sort of rhetorical question, because that's the political/media narrative. Not least because Israeli people are coded 'white' and therefore 'Us' and Palestinian/Lebanese people are coded 'brown' and 'Other'.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Lebanon: Five months into border conflict, displaced peoples needs are on the rise | MSF
The escalation of the armed conflict along Lebanon's southern border has led to the displacement of over 91,000 people, affecting their financial stability and psychological wellbeing.
Over last year a lot of Lebanese people have been displaced, Due to bombing by Israel.
So whilst Israeli have moved away from the border so have Lebanese.
This MSF article is from march
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I don't know enough about Lebanon.
But kind of thought that Israel wants not to take territory but push Hezbollah back to Litani river. The UN resolution 1701 is something that keeps cropping up when I hear Lebanese commentators.
Whilst Hezbollah are part of government not all Lebanese want war with Israel. Lebanon is a basket case economically. With a load of problems. They don't need war with Israel.
Israel strategy I would have thought partly is to make life so difficult for Lebanese that Hezbollah loses support.
The Dahiya doctrine. Attack the country as a whole until it sees the damage caused as not worth letting Hezbollah have its way.
Or as Gallant put it when he threatened to bomb them back into the stone age back in June.
www.aljazeera.com
Notice in the Al Jazeera article the stats on attacks show over last year:
Hezbollah 1258 on Isreal
Israel 6142 attacks on Lebanon
543 Lebanese deaths
And 21 Israel deaths.
So the most attacks over last year to my surprise have been by Israel not Hezbollah.
Id assumed it was the other way around.
Puts a different perspective on it.
So all things considered Israel is letting Lebanese people as a whole know if it wants it can up the death rate and destruction of infrastructure whilst Lebanese aren't capable of opposing this, Given the parlous state of the country.
The pager attack was imo partly psychological war against Lebanese people as a whole. As a kind of new part of Dahiya doctrine
This is an attack on Lebanon whatever IDf/ Netanyahu might say about we are fighting Hezbollah
Israel is taking a break from genocide in Gaza to push back the problem in its northern border.
Of course all this could stop if Israel agreed to a ceasefire. But it has no intention of doing that until its finished its job in Gaza.
I don't really think Israel wants boots on the ground in Lebanon.
But kind of thought that Israel wants not to take territory but push Hezbollah back to Litani river. The UN resolution 1701 is something that keeps cropping up when I hear Lebanese commentators.
Whilst Hezbollah are part of government not all Lebanese want war with Israel. Lebanon is a basket case economically. With a load of problems. They don't need war with Israel.
Israel strategy I would have thought partly is to make life so difficult for Lebanese that Hezbollah loses support.
The Dahiya doctrine. Attack the country as a whole until it sees the damage caused as not worth letting Hezbollah have its way.
Or as Gallant put it when he threatened to bomb them back into the stone age back in June.
Israel warns can send Lebanon ‘back to Stone Age’ as UN seeks de-escalation
Gallant says Israel can inflict ‘massive damage’ as UN humanitarian chief says war would be ‘potentially apocalyptic’.
Notice in the Al Jazeera article the stats on attacks show over last year:
Hezbollah 1258 on Isreal
Israel 6142 attacks on Lebanon
543 Lebanese deaths
And 21 Israel deaths.
So the most attacks over last year to my surprise have been by Israel not Hezbollah.
Id assumed it was the other way around.
Puts a different perspective on it.
So all things considered Israel is letting Lebanese people as a whole know if it wants it can up the death rate and destruction of infrastructure whilst Lebanese aren't capable of opposing this, Given the parlous state of the country.
The pager attack was imo partly psychological war against Lebanese people as a whole. As a kind of new part of Dahiya doctrine
This is an attack on Lebanon whatever IDf/ Netanyahu might say about we are fighting Hezbollah
Israel is taking a break from genocide in Gaza to push back the problem in its northern border.
Of course all this could stop if Israel agreed to a ceasefire. But it has no intention of doing that until its finished its job in Gaza.
I don't really think Israel wants boots on the ground in Lebanon.
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Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
I'm afraid that's not how public boards work. Posting carries an implicit invitation for anyone to respond.
You're arguing that the pager attack was indiscriminate and trying to support that with people questioning its legality because of its unconventional nature and the fact that non-combatants have been killed and injured. Others are saying to you that any military action in such a theatre will result in civilian casualties and this one is more targeted than, say, flattening a block of flats in Gaza, or the concerted targeting of civilians by Hamas, or Hezbollah activities. There's no doubt that Israel is in breach of numerous aspects of international law in other areas, so quoting "experts" who say that this may be, doesn't bolster your argument. What Israel will argue however, is why should they, when faced with a clear and present existential threat, abide by laws or rules of engagement that are ignored by their opponents.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Israel haven't said anything so far on this attack. So not sure where this comes from. In Gaza they keep saying they are abiding by international law. They opposed ICJ on its ruling of occupation and also is defending itself against Genocide charges
My reading is that Israel argues it is within the international law as a state. Pretty well its standard line over the years.
It puts a lot of legal effort over the years to justify its actions.
And fair enough if it wants to try that one. Which is why its worth looking at experts and what they say on the matter.
On extra judicial killings / targeted assassination it succeeded in changing customary law on war. Whether it will in this case is still to be seen
Who are these others?
Last time I looked at news its the Palestinians who are being faced with existential threat under this particular Israeli government.
Well at least you are clear- a well armed state democratic can ignore international agreements when it sees fit. I thought you had been arguing that what I was posting up was incorrect.
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ska invita
back on the other side
Great news for the Israeli butchers - Likud back at top of the national polls
"Benjamin Netanyahu’s poll standing has recovered from post-October 7 lows to put his Likud party back at the top of national surveys, in a partial turnaround that has followed Israel launching more aggressive operations in Lebanon and Iran..............surveys in the past two weeks put the seats Likud could win in fresh elections to Israel’s 120-seat parliament in the low to mid 20s, up from a nadir of 16 in the months after October 7."
"since Netanyahu would remain in office as incumbent in the event of a hung parliament — his fortunes would also depend on the ability of Israel’s opposition to form a coalition to oust him.
In 2021, the last time Netanyahu was ejected from office, it took a coalition spanning much of Israel’s political spectrum, from Jewish nationalists to Islamists, to defeat him. In the aftermath of Hamas’s October 7 attack, such a combination was unlikely to be repeated, Strauchler said."
"Benjamin Netanyahu’s poll standing has recovered from post-October 7 lows to put his Likud party back at the top of national surveys, in a partial turnaround that has followed Israel launching more aggressive operations in Lebanon and Iran..............surveys in the past two weeks put the seats Likud could win in fresh elections to Israel’s 120-seat parliament in the low to mid 20s, up from a nadir of 16 in the months after October 7."
"since Netanyahu would remain in office as incumbent in the event of a hung parliament — his fortunes would also depend on the ability of Israel’s opposition to form a coalition to oust him.
In 2021, the last time Netanyahu was ejected from office, it took a coalition spanning much of Israel’s political spectrum, from Jewish nationalists to Islamists, to defeat him. In the aftermath of Hamas’s October 7 attack, such a combination was unlikely to be repeated, Strauchler said."
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Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Not as a state, but plenty of Israelis are discussing it, and it's the topic of this thread. If you want to discuss broader Israeli policy there's another thread round the corner that this one was set up to avoid derailing. The part of my post that you've highlighted is a direct reference to this attack which you have called indiscriminate. Would you agree that it's less indiscriminate than launching unguided rockets into civilian areas or shooting into crowds of kids at a rave?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Whataboutery alert
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
By no meansHypocrisy alert
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
What I was posting here that is relevant to this thread was the provisional view of the legality of pager attack by experts.
I'm not even sure you've read the full posy and the articles.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
What full posy would that be?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
You posted it in response to someone arguing that they weren't indiscriminate.
Again, you do this a lot.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Surely this is good news for some posters on here? Who else is going to pursue as effectively the killing of Palestinians on such an industrial scale and the liquidation of those opposed to the apartheid state?
Somebody (teqniq ?) posted this interview with Ori Goldberg possibly in this thread possibly in another thread (I don't like these multiple threads!!) And I just wanted to say it is well worth reading, especially for some of the armchair generals on here.
www.972mag.com
Very briefly Iran and Hezbollah are not fanatics bent on the destruction of Israel and are rational actors. And if anything so far they have been restrained.
I'm increasingly confident that Israel has gone off the deep end on this. If Hezbollah don't match the escalation, Israel won't be able to bring the US in and then they're winning the tactical battles to lose the broader strategic war. Israelis tend to think they are surrounded by hostile states, which just isn't true - Jordan and Egypt have peace treaties and are very dependent on US patronage. It wasn't that long ago that Turkey was an outright ally of Israel conducting joint military exercises with them. And Saudi Arabia and the Gulf Arab states have a common enemy with Iran. Despite everything Israel has a regional political standing which they are busily undermining. Not to mention to various sympathetic/supportive stances across Europe. Nasrallah just has to rein it in. He isn't the blind fanatic of Israeli mythology.
What Israelis don’t want to hear about Iran and Hezbollah
For years, Israeli expert Ori Goldberg has challenged commonly-held beliefs about the Islamic Republic and its allies. Will anyone listen?
www.972mag.com
Very briefly Iran and Hezbollah are not fanatics bent on the destruction of Israel and are rational actors. And if anything so far they have been restrained.
I'm increasingly confident that Israel has gone off the deep end on this. If Hezbollah don't match the escalation, Israel won't be able to bring the US in and then they're winning the tactical battles to lose the broader strategic war. Israelis tend to think they are surrounded by hostile states, which just isn't true - Jordan and Egypt have peace treaties and are very dependent on US patronage. It wasn't that long ago that Turkey was an outright ally of Israel conducting joint military exercises with them. And Saudi Arabia and the Gulf Arab states have a common enemy with Iran. Despite everything Israel has a regional political standing which they are busily undermining. Not to mention to various sympathetic/supportive stances across Europe. Nasrallah just has to rein it in. He isn't the blind fanatic of Israeli mythology.
ska invita
back on the other side
"in" how?
Not sure I understand the question. But I meant direct military involvement against Hezbollah. Airstrikes plus...
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Which posters here support genocide?
ska invita
back on the other side
Thanks yes thats what I meant.
I cant see the US getting involved...I see Israel as the US's proxy in this anyhow, no reason for them to get their hands obviously bloodied
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Why not? After all, the Americans (and British) have already been involved in gaza and defending the zionist entity from drone attack
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
That's a selective reading of the situation. Your use of terms like "collateral damage" tell me as much.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Somebody (teqniq ?) posted this interview with Ori Goldberg possibly in this thread possibly in another thread (I don't like these multiple threads!!) And I just wanted to say it is well worth reading, especially for some of the armchair generals on here.
What Israelis don’t want to hear about Iran and Hezbollah
For years, Israeli expert Ori Goldberg has challenged commonly-held beliefs about the Islamic Republic and its allies. Will anyone listen?
Very briefly Iran and Hezbollah are not fanatics bent on the destruction of Israel and are rational actors. And if anything so far they have been restrained.
I'm increasingly confident that Israel has gone off the deep end on this. If Hezbollah don't match the escalation, Israel won't be able to bring the US in and then they're winning the tactical battles to lose the broader strategic war. Israelis tend to think they are surrounded by hostile states, which just isn't true - Jordan and Egypt have peace treaties and are very dependent on US patronage. It wasn't that long ago that Turkey was an outright ally of Israel conducting joint military exercises with them. And Saudi Arabia and the Gulf Arab states have a common enemy with Iran. Despite everything Israel has a regional political standing which they are busily undermining. Not to mention to various sympathetic/supportive stances across Europe. Nasrallah just has to rein it in. He isn't the blind fanatic of Israeli mythology.
That’s a great article
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
After reading up on the issue and thus putting up an informed opinion.
Yes I try to read up rather than spout off all the time. Or launch into abusive attacks on posters.
I had , I will again point out to you, that I had been pulled up for not fact checking. The post saying this I noticed you liked.
Therefore when it came down to the pager attack I went and looked up the issue to do some fact checking.
Which it appears you also have a problem with
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