Is there any validity in the "Men's Movement"?

[Blagsta]

I don't think they're individualist in any political sense, but they are concerned with describing what is happening to a particular person's body, so are not the whole story.

All modes of description take place at a certain level.
In my opinion, any rounded notion of 'health' has to take into account the interrelationships between people, given we are necessarily social animals, which I think may be where you're going with this.

You don't think medical models are individualist? So, say, the medical model of schizophrenia (a brain disease) contrasted with, say social models (trauma, abuse, poverty etc) is not individualist?

 

[dylanredefined]

What is your role in healthcare?

And is a nurse not a "proper medic"?

Shudder, medic is either a doctor or some sort of emergency medic including paramedic (which is a defined term) they would all get upset if
you use the wrong term. Not a nurse.

 

[8ball]

What is your role in healthcare?

Software related to clinical trial design at the moment.

And is a nurse not a "proper medic"?

Tricky one, would never want to diss nurses but it's a big profession and it spans a big range in terms of the extent of medical knowledge they have.
What do you do?

 

[Blagsta]

Shudder, medic is either a doctor or some sort of emergency medic including paramedic (which is a defined term) they would all get upset if
you use the wrong term. Not a nurse.

Fairynuff.

I dislike what is implied by the term "proper medic" though. Smacks of doctor arrogance.

 

[Blagsta]

Software related to clinical trial design at the moment.



Tricky one, would never want to diss nurses but it's a big profession and it spans a big range in terms of the extent of medical knowledge they have.
What do you do?

You're not a clinical practitioner?

I'm (very nearly, just waiting for my PIN) a nurse.

 

[8ball]

You don't think medical models are individualist? So, say, the medical model of schizophrenia (a brain disease) contrasted with, say social models (trauma, abuse, poverty etc) is not individualist?

Not sure if you misread my post. They are individualist in terms of looking at what is going on with an individual. Not necessarily in any political context, though.

 

[8ball]

You're not a clinical practitioner?

Nope, thought the 'software' bit covered that tbf. How about you?

 

[Blagsta]

Not sure if you mis-read by post. They are individualist in terms of looking at what is going on with an individual. Not necessarily in any political context, though.

You don't see a link between purely looking at the individual and politics?

 

[Blagsta]

Nope, thought the 'software' bit covered that tbf. How about you?

Yes, I'm a clinical practitioner.

 

[8ball]

Yes, I'm a clinical practitioner.

What specifically?

 

[Blagsta]

What specifically?

An addictions nurse.

 

[cesare]

Apologies Blagsta When I suggested kropotkin it wasn't because I don't accept clinical practitioners as "proper medics", I think I was responding to an implied "only a doctor will do" about the suggestion (and I might have might not have interpreted that properly either).

 

[8ball]

An addictions nurse.

I can see where your reaction about 'Doctor arrogance' would come from in that case...

Is the term 'medic' used for those in your role?

 

[Orang Utan]

On one side I have women and gay men telling me whats wrong with me(practically everything) ,And, then I have the MRA movement. Nothing of value here at all.

REALLY?

 

[Blagsta]

Apologies Blagsta When I suggested kropotkin it wasn't because I don't accept clinical practitioners as "proper medics", I think I was responding to an implied "only a doctor will do" about the suggestion (and I might have might not have interpreted that properly either).

No worries

 

[Blagsta]

Dp

 

[8ball]

Apologies Blagsta When I suggested kropotkin it wasn't because I don't accept clinical practitioners as "proper medics", I think I was responding to an implied "only a doctor will do" about the suggestion (and I might have might not have interpreted that properly either).

I was kind of thinking of a doctor tbf since Blagsta's response earlier was 'are you a doctor' and getting some kind of input from someone with a medical degree would have been handy. Someone involved with medical classification or coding, or an epidemiologist etc. would come under the umbrella I was thinking of too.

Def wasn't intending to disrespect anyone's profession.

 

[cesare]

The authors of Spirit Level are epidemiologists iirc

 

[8ball]

The authors of Spirit Level are epidemiologists iirc

Yeah, one of them has a prior background in economic history too.

 

[8ball]

You don't see a link between purely looking at the individual and politics?

So is cell biology especially right-wing, since it's looking at tiny bits of an individual?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So is cell biology especially right-wing, since it's looking at tiny bits of an individual?

No, but a belief that all the important answers can be found at the level of cell biology might be.

As you yourself said, there are different levels of explanation for many phenomena, none of which can be fully subsumed by other levels. Not to accept this might be considered r/w.

 

[8ball]

No, but a belief that all the important answers can be found at the level of cell biology might be.

I think it could just be barking. Then again, cells do tend to work together in a coordinated fashion so it might be a left-wing thing...

As you yourself said, there are different levels of explanation for many phenomena, none of which can be fully subsumed by other levels. Not to accept this might be considered r/w.

The first but has been the point I've been trying to make (with some emphasis on the dangers of messing about with agreed terms in technical fields, lest things all go a bit Jonathan Bishop), though I'm not sure how the second bit works, unless 'right-wing' is just taken to mean 'stuff I don't particularly like or approve of'.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Take hearing voices.

A patient presents to a doctor in distress about her voices. The doctor knows of a drug that will change the patient's brain chemistry in such a way that the voices will stop. Doctor prescribes drug, voices stop, job done?

Or the doctor explores the voices with the patient in an attempt to help her to make some sense of them and to manage them. No drug prescribed, voices may continue but in a manageable, livable way.

I think there are parallels to the r/w l/w politics here - the latter seeing individuals as impossible to divorce from the societies they are in, while the former will simply ignore the societal context.

 

[8ball]

Both of those just look like approaches to treating a particular individual.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

To me, they are defining 'individual' differently. Individual is a socially defined category after all. In the latter approach, the manifestation of the voices is seen in a wider setting - and the voices are seen as part of that individual, not some cancerous growth that needs to be cut off.

 

[8ball]

To me, they are defining 'individual' differently. Individual is a socially defined category after all. In the latter approach, the manifestation of the voices is seen in a wider setting - and the voices are seen as part of that individual, not some cancerous growth that needs to be cut off.

There's no wider setting, just the withholding of drugs (and the adaptation to the voices element). Might as well say the drugs approach is the left-wing approach because that makes it less likely the individual's relationships will suffer but taking drugs will make the patient weak, and the voices are something to be overcome.

It's a continuation of the 'toasters/cars/band t-shirts/cheese-before-chilli are right-wing' thing that I've only ever seen on Urban.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The wider setting is the consideration of the voices, which will include an exploration of the patient's history, which will be a history of their interactions with others.

I do see a parallel here. For instance, see r/w attitudes towards crime and punishment, and the tendency not to look beyond the immediate situation - bad thing done by bad person who needs to be punished.

 

[8ball]

The wider setting is the consideration of the voices, which will include an exploration of the patient's history, which will be a history of their interactions with others.

And what do you conclude when the voice just says 'THUD!'?

 

[Blagsta]

So is cell biology especially right-wing, since it's looking at tiny bits of an individual?

Is this a serious question?

 

[8ball]

Is this a serious question?

I dunno, how serious have you been up to this point?