Is there any validity in the "Men's Movement"?

[ViolentPanda]

Unfortunatly most of the men in the mens movement are either unspeakably wet either because changing a nappy makes them understand caring or their standing around a fire in a wood in the rain

I'm fairly sure that both the classic "new man" and "Iron John" paradigms are a bit out of date.

or one step away from being arrested for rape

This one, however, may be eternal for some.

 

[Blagsta]

Think you need to read ahead of that comment of mine a little.

The older definitions of malutrition used to define malnutrition as a deficit of one or other thing in the diet, with obesity per se being considered an instance of 'overnutrition' of one group and other overabundances being considered a form of poisoning.

I'm guessing this definitions would have been from a time before obesity, heart disease, type 2 diabetes etc were such big health issues and recognised as being linked to poor diet.

 

[8ball]

I'm guessing this definitions would have been from a time before obesity, heart disease, type 2 diabetes etc were such big health issues and recognised as being linked to poor diet.

Yep - I added that in a late edit.

Reason I said it was that I was using the older definition earlier in the thread - post ~153.

 

[dylanredefined]

Maybe that could be to do with identifying too much with the ideological identity associated with heterosexual masculinity - as opposed to just fancying people who happen to be women - and there is all sorts of social and cultural connotations connected to that as well.
Heterosexual - homosexual identities only matter because of homophobic prejudice...... IF there was no prejudice , it would not matter who fancies who....... people would just fancy people

On one side I have women and gay men telling me whats wrong with me(practically everything) ,And, then I have the MRA movement. Nothing of value here at all.

 

[Blagsta]

Yep - I added that in a late edit.

Reason I said it was that I was using the older definition earlier in the thread - post ~153.

Who was this definition from and when? Out of interest, like.

 

[8ball]

Who was this definition from and when? Out of interest, like.

It was the general medical definition when I was at Uni - some online dictionaries (eg. Merriam-Webster, which I looked up) are still using it.
The online medical dictionaries seem generally up to date, though I would expect they would try quite hard to keep on top of changing terms.

'Clinical Nutrition In Practice' is a pretty standard text and still seems to be using the old definition, as does Patient.co.uk so I guess the term is still in flux. I found a reference to the WHO recommending a change to the definition at some point but it was a dead link...

Edit: The A.D.A.M. medical dictionary also has the older definition as of 2013.

 

[Blagsta]

Goes to show how these things aren't absolutes but are socially defined...

 

[8ball]

Goes to show how these things aren't absolutes but are socially defined...

I suspect in this case it's more that groups with particular agendas have been jostling for ownership of terms.

 

[Blagsta]

I suspect in this case it's more that groups with particular agendas have been jostling for ownership of terms.

So socially defined then.

 

[8ball]

So socially defined then.

Well, in a particular sense. Though all words are socially defined when you take a broad enough definition so it isn't really saying anything.

 

[Blagsta]

Oxford Dictionary of Nursing Fourth Edition (2003) defines malnutrition as

"the condition caused by an improper balance between what an individual eats and what is required to maintain health. This can result from eating too little (subnutrition or starvation) but may also imply dietary excess or an incorrect balance of basic foodstuffs."

So it's been a definition for at least 11 years.


Can't believe I bothered for looking that up and typing it out just for an argument on the net, lol

 

[cesare]

Mal = bad, doesn't it? Bad nutrition. Not just starvation.

 

[8ball]

'May also imply' seems to indicate a lack of general acceptance and that that is an alternative usage. More research required...

An important thing to remember is that quite tight control is kept in terms of medical definitions to avoid massive confusion arising over very specific terms.
Neither the ICD-9 or ICD-10 have obesity linked to malnutrition in the clinical coding system. It may be useful for clinicians to note how social workers may use terms but it's not going to help anyone when an overweight kid is sent for a diagnosis of malnutrition and the report comes back 'nope'.

 

[andysays]

On one side I have women and gay men telling me whats wrong with me(practically everything) ,And, then I have the MRA movement. Nothing of value here at all.

Put downs to the left of you, Jokers (or at least people dressed as Batman) to the right.

It's a hard old life being a hetro-sexual male, sure enough...

 

[8ball]

Mal = bad, doesn't it? Bad nutrition. Not just starvation.

Yeah, it was pretty much invented for that reason - because in various countries there were people who weren't technically starving yet had all sorts of things wrong due to dietary deficits. Of course 'bad nutrition' is perfectly applicable for obesity etc., but changing a medical term has consequences, which is why there are international agreements about definitions and careful documentation of when they vary.

When ICD-11 comes out in 2017 malnutrition may well encompass obesity.

 

[Blagsta]

'May also imply' seems to indicate a lack of general acceptance and that that is an alternative usage. More research required...

An important thing to remember is that quite tight control is kept in terms of medical definitions to avoid massive confusion arising over very specific terms.
Neither the ICD-9 or ICD-10 have obesity linked to malnutrition in the clinical coding system. It may be useful for clinicians to note how social workers may use terms but it's not going to help anyone when an overweight kid is sent for a diagnosis of malnutrition and the report comes back 'nope'.

This is why applying a strict medical model to social problems is daft.

 

[8ball]

This is why applying a strict medical model to social problems is daft.

Malnutrition is a medical problem. Social problems (among others) lead to it.

Playing Humpty-Dumpty in order to push a political or social agenda has Belgium dictum Farquhar.
And by 'Belgium dictum Farquhar' I mean 'unintended consequences.
Obviously.

 

[dylanredefined]

Put downs to the left of you, Jokers (or at least people dressed as Batman) to the right.

It's a hard old life being a hetro-sexual male, sure enough...

No it's really not. It is not the 50's anymore so no one sane expects to come home to a dutiful wife etc. There are problems that need to be addressed domestic violence is far too high for example and it is mostly men hitting women. Neither side seems to be offering palatable solutions.
Though head shots to anyone who is so stupid to think hitting someone you purport to love seems a good idea.

 

[8ball]

No it's really not. It is not the 50's anymore so no one sane expects to come home to a dutiful wife. There are problems that need to be addressed domestic violence is far too high and it is mostly men hitting women. Neither side seems to be offering palatable solutions.
Though head shots to anyone who is so stupid to think hitting someone you purport to love seems a good idea.

I haven't the faintest idea where you're going with all of this (might just be me)...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Mal = bad, doesn't it? Bad nutrition. Not just starvation.

So-called micronutrient deficiencies. This report gives some details of problems that also affect rich countries.

From there:

Globally, the problem is enormous. Micronutrient deficiencies are not always clinically apparent or dependent on food supply and consumption patterns. They are associated with physiologic effects that can be life-threatening or more commonly damaging to optimal health and functioning. Iron deficiency is the most prevalent nutrition problem in the world. Folic acid deficiency remains responsible for excess birth defects, and many other micronutrient deficiencies are affecting populations at risk of growing obesity and with poor habits of physical exercise. Vitamin D deficiency, once pandemic among children in the industrialized countries, is now found to be extremely widespread, can lead to osteoporosis and bone fractures and may become life-threatening or leave an elderly person permanently handicapped, thus reducing length and quality of life.

 

[dylanredefined]

I haven't the faintest idea where you're going with all of this (might just be me)...

Mens movement good idea reality = its full of wankers.
No real alternative out there. better?

 

[8ball]

Mens movement good idea reality = its full of wankers.
No real alternative out there. better?

Much clearer, thanks.

I'm less sure of the 'good idea' bit, really, since from the evidence of this thread we have meandered over a large area of ground with the most major bit being a discussion of inequality, which is very far from being solely a male problem.

Also, when certain male issues such as differences in the suicide rate or levels of awareness of certain cancers are discussed, women seem overwhelmingly supportive, so I don't think there is any reason to section the area off.

 

[Blagsta]

Malnutrition is a medical problem. Social problems (among others) lead to it.

Playing Humpty-Dumpty in order to push a political or social agenda has Belgium dictum Farquhar.
And by 'Belgium dictum Farquhar' I mean 'unintended consequences.
Obviously.

No, malnutrition is a social problem.

Are you a doctor btw?

 

[dylanredefined]

No, malnutrition is a social problem.

Are you a doctor btw?

It's both you can get it because you are ill and can't get the proper nutrition. Through stupidity getting lost and running out of food as an example or deciding to live on crisps. Or there is just no food to be had.
If one person turns up with malnutrition it is a medical problem.
If lots have it it is a social and medical problem.

 

[8ball]

No, malnutrition is a social problem.

And with that the colourless green ideas will have to depart to the land of dreams for now.

And no, started training in pharmacy, switched to genetics and ended up in healthcare via quite a circuitous route.
Has always been a big interest though, and I'm pretty much kept alive by technology and drugs these days, so I do get annoyed when corporate, lobbying or other interests start thinking they can call anything whatever they like without consequence (I'm not bothered about things changing over time where appropriate, but medical classification is a big complicated area - I've been involved with the design of the IT behind recording/reporting/stats in the past).

Would certainly be useful to have a "proper medic's" opinion on this particular terminology, though.

 

[Blagsta]

Hang on, let me qualify that. Primary malnutrition is a social problem. Malnutrition secondary to something like diabetes is a medical problem.

Then again, I find purely medical models of health far too individualist for my liking.

 

[cesare]

And with that the colourless green ideas will have to depart to the land of dreams for now.

And no, started training in pharmacy, switched to genetics and ended up in healthcare via quite a circuitous route.
Has always been a big interest though, and I'm pretty much kept alive by technology and drugs these days, so I do get annoyed when corporate, lobbying or other interests start thinking they can call anything whatever they like without consequence (I'm not bothered about things changing over time where appropriate, but medical classification is a big complicated area - I've been involved with the design of the IT behind recording/reporting/stats in the past).

Would certainly be useful to have a "proper medic's" opinion on this particular terminology, though.

kropotkin maybe, if he has time?

 

[Blagsta]

It's both you can get it because you are ill and can't get the proper nutrition. Through stupidity getting lost and running out of food as an example or deciding to live on crisps. Or there is just no food to be had.
If one person turns up with malnutrition it is a medical problem.
If lots have it it is a social and medical problem.

Yes, see my qualification above.

 

[8ball]

Then again, I find purely medical models of health far too individualist for my liking.

I don't think they're individualist in any political sense, but they are concerned with describing what is happening to a particular person's body, so are not the whole story.

All modes of description take place at a certain level.
In my opinion, any rounded notion of 'health' has to take into account the interrelationships between people, given we are necessarily social animals, which I think may be where you're going with this.

 

[Blagsta]

And with that the colourless green ideas will have to depart to the land of dreams for now.

And no, started training in pharmacy, switched to genetics and ended up in healthcare via quite a circuitous route.
Has always been a big interest though, and I'm pretty much kept alive by technology and drugs these days, so I do get annoyed when corporate, lobbying or other interests start thinking they can call anything whatever they like without consequence (I'm not bothered about things changing over time where appropriate, but medical classification is a big complicated area - I've been involved with the design of the IT behind recording/reporting/stats in the past).

Would certainly be useful to have a "proper medic's" opinion on this particular terminology, though.

What is your role in healthcare?

And is a nurse not a "proper medic"?