Is there any validity in the "Men's Movement"?

[littlebabyjesus]

I dunno, how serious have you been up to this point?

I'm serious, btw. I really do see parallels between a rigid adherence to a medical model and r/w politics.

 

[8ball]

I'm serious, btw. I really do see parallels between a rigid adherence to a medical model and r/w politics.

Right-wing politics is in my experience more likely to blame all sorts of things on individual moral failings. Not to say that medicalisation of all manner of things doesn't happen where it looks profitable, but if we look at something like, say, the medicalisation of dissent, that's an authoritarian device at both poles of the left-right spectrum.

I think spotting points where something looks a little like something else needs a good bit of backing up if you're going to imply a solid connection or it just ends up sounding like the ropiest of evo-psych arguments.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You comparing me to evo-psych?

How very dare you.

The point of connection is the stress on looking at the individual divorced from their wider setting, on atomising things in a way that leads to less understanding, not more.

 

[8ball]

You comparing me to evo-psych?

How very dare you.

I think talking about 'connection' in itself and linking that to a left/right paradigm strikes me as a case of everything looking like a nail when all you have is a hammer.
'Connection' is very important to the Right when talking up any kind of nationalist cause. It's seeing everything through one filter that is limiting, not the use of any particular one.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Sticking to mental health issues, mental health is both a medical and very much a political issue, necessarily so as it can involve detention and treatment against people's will. As such, I think the connection in this particular area is both valid and necessary.

 

[8ball]

Sticking to mental health issues, mental health is both a medical and very much a political issue, necessarily so as it can involve detention and treatment against people's will. As such, I think the connection in this particular area is both valid and necessary.

Yes, it's a multi-dimensional issue. See where I'm going with the 'everything looks like a nail when all you have is a hammer' thing?

 

[Blagsta]

Both of those just look like approaches to treating a particular individual.

No, the former is medical model and individualist (locates the problem purely in the individual), the latter is a social model (looks at the problem in the context of the person's relationships).

 

[8ball]

No, the former is medical model and individualist (locates the problem purely in the individual), the latter is a social model (looks at the problem in the context of the person's relationships).

You've brought a lot of extra stuff to what LBJ actually said there.

 

[Blagsta]

There's no wider setting, just the withholding of drugs (and the adaptation to the voices element). Might as well say the drugs approach is the left-wing approach because that makes it less likely the individual's relationships will suffer but taking drugs will make the patient weak, and the voices are something to be overcome.

It's a continuation of the 'toasters/cars/band t-shirts/cheese-before-chilli are right-wing' thing that I've only ever seen on Urban.

With all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[8ball]

With all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about.

Ooh, devastating smackdown there.

Obviously you'll be able to back up why things are left-wing when you like them and not when you don't.

 

[Blagsta]

I dunno, how serious have you been up to this point?

Totally serious. This is all basic stuff really. Models of mental health is 2nd year (mental health) nursing diploma stuff.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You've brought a lot of extra stuff to what LBJ actually said there.

Blagsta's post expresses what I was trying to get at.

 

[Blagsta]

I'm serious, btw. I really do see parallels between a rigid adherence to a medical model and r/w politics.

Indeed. Models of health are political.

 

[8ball]

Blagsta's post expresses what I was trying to get at.

Fair enough - I was just dealing with exactly what you said and how they can be bent to adjust a particular filter.

I think Blagsta has become horribly confused and decided I was trying to describe how psychiatry works.

 

[Blagsta]

Yes, it's a multi-dimensional issue. See where I'm going with the 'everything looks like a nail when all you have is a hammer' thing?

You seem to be claiming that the models we use to understand things are divorced from social context. Which is frankly ludicrous.

 

[8ball]

You seem to be claiming that the models we use to understand things are divorced from social context. Which is frankly ludicrous.

How do you come to that conclusion?

 

[Blagsta]

Ooh, devastating smackdown there.

Obviously you'll be able to back up why things are left-wing when you like them and not when you don't.

I have backed them up. The failing here is your lack of familiarity with the arguments. As I said, the politics of models of health is something that all nursing students will be familiar with.

 

[Blagsta]

How do you come to that conclusion?

From your posts.

If you didn't mean that then I'm clueless as to what you do mean.

 

[8ball]

I have backed them up.

Will be easy to find a quote then. Try to be specific. One reputable definition of 'left-wing' as 'things Blagsta approves of' should do the job.

 

[Blagsta]

How do you come to that conclusion?

From your posts.

If you didn't mean that then I'm clueless as to what you do mean.

 

[8ball]

From your posts.

If you didn't mean that then I'm clueless as to what you do mean.

That might be where the problem is, I agree.

I'll try and be clear and specific if you do the same, and let's not try to infer too much from what hasn't been said.

 

[Blagsta]

My main point is that health is political.

 

[8ball]

My main point is that health is political.

Ok.

My main point is that health is a lot of things (including political).
My subpoint is that trying to slap anything that connects with politics (which covers pretty much everything) onto a left-right spectrum is silly.
My addendum to that point is that politics is more complex than a left-right spectrum, and lots of other attempts to place political ideas and opinions onto a single 'map' (whether it be the 'political compass' or whatever) also leave lots of stuff out of the picture.

What you see is influenced by the lens you are looking through.

edit: that's a 'general you' rather than 'you personally'.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think left/right wing is still a valid thing to talk about. It's a simplification, but a useful one, imo.

Imo many of the attempts to produce more complex pictures of political views are less useful because they miss out what, for me, is the essential distinction, which is precisely the view towards collective action and when and how it should be done. It can also miss the original point of left/right wing from its origin, which is whose interests are you promoting.

 

[Blagsta]

I don't think I said anything much about left and right. I thought I was opposing individualist models to social models.

 

[8ball]

I think left/right wing is still a valid thing to talk about. It's a simplification, but a useful one, imo.

Imo many of the attempts to produce more complex pictures of political views are less useful because they miss out what, for me, is the essential distinction, which is precisely the view towards collective action and when and how it should be done.

Can you expand on that essential distinction? Right-wing concerns seem quite keen on certain kinds of collective actions. And some left-wing concerns are fiercely protective of various personal rights in cases where right-wing concerns feel there are dangers for social cohesion.

 

[Blagsta]

And yes, what you see is dependent on where you are. Again, basic sociology really.

I'm discussing sociology of health with a computer programmer. No wonder I'm confused. You gave the impression initially of being a healthcare worker.

 

[8ball]

I don't think I said anything much about left and right. I thought I was opposing individualist models to social models.

You're right - I think LBJ made more of the noises linking up 'individualist' with the 'left-right' continuum. Though you did directly respond to one of my replies to LBJ which was addressing that specifically.

 

[8ball]

I'm discussing sociology of health with a computer programmer.

I'm not a computer programmer. And you're not so much discussing sociology of health as making some kind of appeal to authority. Try to focus on things I've actually said.

 

[Blagsta]

I'm not a computer programmer. And you're not so much discussing sociology of health as making some kind of appeal to authority. Try to focus on things I've actually said.

I'm not making any appeal to authority. I'm trying to clarify some ground. You initially gave the impression of being a health care worker, but you're an IT worker. That clarifies to me where the confusion is. You're not familiar with arguments around models of health and sociology of health.