Is there any validity in the "Men's Movement"?

[frogwoman]

Definitely.

I sometimes think I'm a little more 'bicameral' than average, but the pointless jibber-jabber I sometimes hear is something that rarely bothers me and I certainly wouldn't want to deal with drug side effects in order to silence it.

I've no idea whether in reality it is something a psychiatrist would want to 'correct', though. When I take meds for other things I usually have a pretty frank talk with the Doc about benefits vs. side effects but I can see why there might be more of a 'Doctor knows best' vibe when 'madness' is involved.

The one exception to the rule re: the collaborative approach in my experience is surgeons, who almost always are domineering and lacking in empathy.

I think you want someone who is sure of themselves and cold-hearted when they're going to be cutting you up, though.

8ball, what do you think about the 'curing' autism movement? I know a girl who is high functioning autistic and rabidly against it, even in cases where the person can't speak and needs a high level of care etc. Tell me to check your privilege if you want but I'd be interested to know what you thought.

 

[Blagsta]

The

Definitely.

I sometimes think I'm a little more 'bicameral' than average, but the pointless jibber-jabber I sometimes hear is something that rarely bothers me and I certainly wouldn't want to deal with drug side effects in order to silence it.

I've no idea whether in reality it is something a psychiatrist would want to 'correct', though. When I take meds for other things I usually have a pretty frank talk with the Doc about benefits vs. side effects but I can see why there might be more of a 'Doctor knows best' vibe when 'madness' is involved.

The one exception to the rule re: the collaborative approach in my experience is surgeons, who almost always are domineering and lacking in empathy.

I think you want someone who is sure of themselves and cold-hearted when they're going to be cutting you up, though.

If you're not distressed by voices and function ok, then it's not a mental health problem.

 

[toggle]

What some people are saying (and I'm don't think I disagree) is that the stereotypical model of heterosexual man as emotionally illiterate, sexist, prone to violence dickhead (and i choose the word with care) is wrong.

This.

We need to talk about male mental health.

of course we do. but the model of what a man should be stops a lot of that discussion. while it's not seen as manly to admit needing help for feeling like hell, problems will continue. helping men to be able to access services requires attacking the myths that 'real men' don't need them.

Been trying to remember this since the thread began:



http://positivenews.org.uk/2012/community/9997/leading-men-women/

EWWWWWWW.

 

[Blagsta]

Surgeons are considered notoriously arrogant, even amongst other doctors - generally thought to be necessary but not the sort of people you want to hang around with IME.

I wonder about cause and effect here. I'd guess that cutting into people and dealing with death on a regular basis necessitates fairly robust emotional defences.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I wonder about cause and effect here. I'd guess that cutting into people and dealing with death on a regular basis necessitates fairly robust emotional defences.

I don't think it's something you can do without a large degree of self confidence - which is something that all doctors need really, or at least, professionally speaking they need it. I know a fair number of doctors and many buy quite heavily into the doctor/patient roles and the associated power dynamics because it allows them to feel able to make decisions when they have the same level of self doubt as anyone else. IMO. But surgeons seem to have a particularly bad rep for carrying that on in their personal lives. The overlap between confidence and arrogance is always interesting and I suspect it gets influenced a lot by social roleplaying here.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I know a fair number of doctors and many buy quite heavily into the doctor/patient roles and the associated power dynamics because it allows them to feel able to make decisions when they have the same level of self doubt as anyone else. IMO.

Hmmm. That's an interesting point. Applying that to psychiatrists, in particular, it appears to be hard for some at least to admit how little we know.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Hmmm. That's an interesting point. Applying that to psychiatrists, in particular, it appears to be hard for some at least to admit how little we know.

Shrinks and surgeons are the two specialties that all other doctors seem to slag off

 

[Blagsta]

Yes, most of the psychiatrists I've come across (consultants at least, I've met some great registrars) are arrogant in the extreme.

 

[Blagsta]

It's a class thing too. The student nurses on my course were a mixture of working class and lower middle class. All the student doctors I met were really posh sounding, proper plummy accents.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's a class thing too. The student nurses on my course were a mixture of working class and lower middle class. All the student doctors I met were really posh sounding, proper plummy accents.

My guess is that that difference has widened recently. I knew a few student doctors 20 years ago and they were mostly averagely middle-class for the uni they were at. But back then you got a grant. I hate to think how much debt becoming a doctor involves now. Must be more than 50k.

 

[8ball]

8ball, what do you think about the 'curing' autism movement? I know a girl who is high functioning autistic and rabidly against it, even in cases where the person can't speak and needs a high level of care etc. Tell me to check your privilege if you want but I'd be interested to know what you thought.

Are you saying check MY privelege or yours? I guess that depends on whether we're going to consider being born NT or autistic to be the privileged position.

It ties in with what I've been saying on this thread but I've grown a bit sceptical of thinking of things in terms of 'spectrums'*, whether that be left/right, autistic/NT, psychopath/non-psychopath etc. - I think the tendency to group things in this way is down the human propensity to spot patterns, then name them, then ascribe meaning to the members of the traits that 'cluster' together and group people accordingly, and eventually arrange culture around these forms of understanding to the point where predictions can become self-fulfilling prophesies**. But that's a whole n'other thread and isn't much more than a musing, reallyy.

But anyway, I'm not convinced when looking at 'autism' that everything in that group is of the same 'kind'. I don't think I can be 'cured' personally any more than a cat can be 'cured' of not being like a dog. Plus, I wouldn't want to be, partly because my identity is now tied up with my upbringing and fumbling accomodations to the condition and partly because I think some of the ways in which I see and process things differently can have value both socially and personally. Some parts of it I would never want to give up, though it would be really interesting to really experience how life is for a 'normal' person (a 'dual boot' brain would be my ideal, which I'm told is something only an Aspie would say).

Where someone has deficits in communication I think that can probably be down to a lot of things once brains start going wrong, and when there is serious suffering or debilitation involved it's natural to want to 'fix' that, but there have been cases in the past where people who were thought to have no 'inner life' to speak of went on to write books, compose music etc. and we need to be careful about both what we're 'fixing' and what we're breaking in the process. In terms of our understanding it's incredibly recently that lobotomies were considered to be 'fixing' people in terms of the narrow criteria of the professionals making the judgments.

* - yeah, I know that should probably be 'spectra' but that might cause some unnecessary confusion

** - with end results as absurd as classifying kitchen implements in terms of the seating arrangements of the national assembly of another country over two hundred years ago.

 

[8ball]

If you're not distressed by voices and function ok, then it's not a mental health problem.

That's my take on things too. You'd know better than me whether that would be the opinion of the general psychiatric community from what I've read it sounds like it would be something they would consider, if not an issue to necessarily chuck the heavy drugs at, definitely a case of 'something is not right with this one'.

I think the opinion of much of the general public might just be 'get away from me, you mentalist!'.

 

[8ball]

It's a class thing too. The student nurses on my course were a mixture of working class and lower middle class. All the student doctors I met were really posh sounding, proper plummy accents.

As well as the class thing in itself (as in the origins of the people in the roles), the medical establishment very consciously builds it's own hierarchy.
Which obviously you know being a nurse but I thought it worth saying.

 

[Red Cat]

Hmmm. That's an interesting point. Applying that to psychiatrists, in particular, it appears to be hard for some at least to admit how little we know.

I don't think that a medical training develops the capacity to not know or to bear uncertainty; it's a training in diagnosis.

 

[Blagsta]

That's my take on things too. You'd know better than me whether that would be the opinion of the general psychiatric community from what I've read it sounds like it would be something they would consider, if not an issue to necessarily chuck the heavy drugs at, definitely a case of 'something is not right with this one'.

I think the opinion of much of the general public might just be 'get away from me, you mentalist!'.

People not in distress and functioning ok generally don't come to the attention of mental health services.

 

[8ball]

People not in distress and functioning ok generally don't come to the attention of mental health services.

Yeah, true. Let's say someone does a psychiatric diagnosis for some reason, maybe depression or something, and the subject of the voices comes up. I'm not sure how that would change things but I get the impression the idea of 'benign hallucinations' isn't something that psychiatry in general is down with.

I don't think it's *just* because of the fact you cite that it's only now coming to light how common these experiences are - I think it's to do with hearing voices being a 'mad stereotype' combined with the stigma attached to mental illness.

 

[Blagsta]

Yeah, true. Let's say someone does a psychiatric diagnosis for some reason, maybe depression or something, and the subject of the voices comes up. I'm not sure how that would change things but I get the impression the idea of 'benign hallucinations' isn't something that psychiatry in general is down with.

I don't think it's *just* because of the fact you cite that it's only now coming to light how common these experiences are - I think it's to do with hearing voices being a 'mad stereotype' combined with the stigma attached to mental illness.

There is a diagnosis of psychotic depression where people hear voices (usually persecutory) when depressed. I think it would be very unusual to hear benign or neutral voices when depressed, but I guess it's possible. Generally speaking though, a psychiatrist won't treat if there isn't a need.

Remember also that attitudes to voice hearing vary from culture to culture. In some cultures it's normal to speak to spirits, ancestors etc.

 

[Blagsta]

As well as the class thing in itself (as in the origins of the people in the roles), the medical establishment very consciously builds it's own hierarchy.
Which obviously you know being a nurse but I thought it worth saying.

Good doctors know that nurses run things.

 

[kropotkin]

I think that a good ward is one where there is a close functional relationship between all the teams personally, but then what would I know.

 

[8ball]

There is a diagnosis of psychotic depression where people hear voices (usually persecutory) when depressed. I think it would be very unusual to hear benign or neutral voices when depressed, but I guess it's possible. Generally speaking though, a psychiatrist won't treat if there isn't a need.

It's good that they've come this far. Wasn't too long ago homosexuality was in their list of mental disorders, with treatments to 'cure' it peaking just a few decades back.

Remember also that attitudes to voice hearing vary from culture to culture. In some cultures it's normal to speak to spirits, ancestors etc.

Yeah, was just talking about our culture. More specifically, Western psychiatrist culture...

 

[frogwoman]

Are you saying check MY privelege or yours? I guess that depends on whether we're going to consider being born NT or autistic to be the privileged position.

It ties in with what I've been saying on this thread but I've grown a bit sceptical of thinking of things in terms of 'spectrums'*, whether that be left/right, autistic/NT, psychopath/non-psychopath etc. - I think the tendency to group things in this way is down the human propensity to spot patterns, then name them, then ascribe meaning to the members of the traits that 'cluster' together and group people accordingly, and eventually arrange culture around these forms of understanding to the point where predictions can become self-fulfilling prophesies*. But that's a whole n'other thread and isn't much more than a musing, reallyy.

But anyway, I'm not convinced when looking at 'autism' that everything in that group is of the same 'kind'. I don't think I can be 'cured' personally any more than a cat can be 'cured' of not being like a dog. Plus, I wouldn't want to be, partly because my identity is now tied up with my upbringing and fumbling accomodations to the condition and partly because I think some of the ways in which I see and process things differently can have value both socially and personally. Some parts of it I would never want to give up, though it would be really interesting to really experience how life is for a 'normal' person (a 'dual boot' brain would be my ideal, which I'm told is something only an Aspie would say).

Where someone has deficits in communication I think that can probably be down to a lot of things once brains start going wrong, and when there is serious suffering or debilitation involved it's natural to want to 'fix' that, but there have been cases in the past where people who were thought to have no 'inner life' to speak of went on to write books, compose music etc. and we need to be careful about both what we're 'fixing' and what we're breaking in the process. In terms of our understanding it's incredibly recently that lobotomies were considered to be 'fixing' people in terms of the narrow criteria of the professionals making the judgments.

* - yeah, I know that should probably be 'spectra' but that might cause some unnecessary confusion

** - with end results as absurd as classifying kitchen implements in terms of the seating arrangements of the national assembly of another country over two hundred years ago.

Thats an excellent post. Ill get back to this tomorrow night mate - can't really give it the attention that it deserves right now.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Are you saying check MY privelege or yours? I guess that depends on whether we're going to consider being born NT or autistic to be the privileged position.

It's interesting to me how this medium almost totally negates the difference. I only know you're somewhere on the spectrum (even if you don't think that's the right way to look at it!) because you told me. You only know that I'm not because I told you. That says something important about what the difference is not, I think.

(Mind you, this medium's limitations are why there are so many bunfights, too.)

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is all very well as far as it goes, but as someone who has been taking anti-depressants for many years, and who has become suicidal again after attempting to reduce them (and also knowing some people who become so distressed by hearing voices when not on suitable medication that they are unable to function at the most basic level, far less engage in the therapy which might help them to come to terms with their illness), I'd be as much against any approach which domatically refused to use medication when appropriate as part of treatment as I would one which claimed that just medication and nothing else was an appropriate treatment.

There is no "dogmatic refusal" to use medication that has been mentioned, just a desire that more clinicians acknowledged that treating the person can be as helpful as treating the problem.

The Mad Pride approach may work for some people, but they are not representative of anyone other than themselves - they certainly don't speak for all with mental ill health.

Of course they don't. They make a point of informing people that their perspective is their own.

The problem with some clinicians is that they're, by tradition, very "top-down" in their approach to medicine - they say, you do - and that is sometimes supremely unhelpful to patients, especially if they don't explain what medication does/can do.
For example, your issues with reduction/withdrawal from A/Ds could very well be a "bounce effect" (suicidal ideation as a concomitant to your body's chemistry being changed by the reduction in A/Ds), but if your clinician never discusses that with you, you wouldn't know to expect it. If you don't know to expect it, then the scare factor of such ideation is much greater.

The three times in my own life I've had moderately severe depressive crises, I was lucky enough twice to see clinicians who wanted to address the causes of my depression, rather than just medicate me. I came out of those crises stronger. The other just prescribed me a benzodiazepine (ativan) and an anti-depressant (high-dose amyitriptyline) and left me to get on with it until she withdrew the prescription after six months and left me to go cold turkey (without warning me about any withdrawal effects). You can guess what happened, I suspect.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Far higher-than-average incidence of psychopathy among surgeons.

Last week's issue of New Statesman had an interview with a neurosurgeon who said exactly the same thing.

 

[frogwoman]

Are you saying check MY privelege or yours? I guess that depends on whether we're going to consider being born NT or autistic to be the privileged position.

It ties in with what I've been saying on this thread but I've grown a bit sceptical of thinking of things in terms of 'spectrums'*, whether that be left/right, autistic/NT, psychopath/non-psychopath etc. - I think the tendency to group things in this way is down the human propensity to spot patterns, then name them, then ascribe meaning to the members of the traits that 'cluster' together and group people accordingly, and eventually arrange culture around these forms of understanding to the point where predictions can become self-fulfilling prophesies**. But that's a whole n'other thread and isn't much more than a musing, reallyy.

But anyway, I'm not convinced when looking at 'autism' that everything in that group is of the same 'kind'. I don't think I can be 'cured' personally any more than a cat can be 'cured' of not being like a dog. Plus, I wouldn't want to be, partly because my identity is now tied up with my upbringing and fumbling accomodations to the condition and partly because I think some of the ways in which I see and process things differently can have value both socially and personally

I'll get back to this later but that's true I think - I think you are usually one of the best, most thoughtful posters on here

 

[8ball]

<ego swells horribly>

 

[Sasaferrato]

Shrinks and surgeons are the two specialties that all other doctors seem to slag off

Yep. Shrinks are dealing with the largely unmeasurable, and surgeons are glorified mechanics. Incidentally, even amongst surgeons there is a hierarchy, with orthopods at the bottom.

 

[ViolentPanda]

<ego swells horribly>

That's not your ego!!!

 

[William of Walworth]

Can't really contribute much to the recent debate about medical models etc (I'm leaving that to the much more knowledgeable on here! ).

But I've just been reading some outtakes from Laura Bates' 'Everyday Sexism' in recent days' Guardians (Googlem -- there's loads of links on the Guardian site and I can't quite pinpoint the stuff I've been looking at) and my main reaction is to cringe at men at their most stupid/primitive.

It's not like I'm not already well aware at how neanderthal some blokes can be, I've looked at her site before, and anyway I've been around a good long time and spent plenty of time in pubs* after all

*Not that the better pubs aren't great ... the worst ones can be truly grim at times though -- best avoided .. and challenging knuckledraggers is far from easy ...

But when she gathers it all together like that, its hard not to despair ....

 

[mentalchik]

Can't really contribute much to the recent debate about medical models etc (I'm leaving that to the much more knowledgeable on here! ).

But I've just been reading some outtakes from Laura Bates' 'Everyday Sexism' in recent days' Guardians (Googlem -- there's loads of links on the Guardian site and I can't quite pinpoint the stuff I've been looking at) and my main reaction is to cringe at men at their most stupid/primitive.

It's not like I'm not already well aware at how neanderthal some blokes can be, I've looked at her site before, and anyway I've been around a good long time and spent plenty of time in pubs* after all

*Not that the better pubs aren't great ... the worst ones can be truly grim at times though -- best avoided .. and challenging knuckledraggers is far from easy ...

But when she gathers it all together like that, its hard not to despair ....

I read that article and it made me so angry and like you full of despair....................what are we still doing as a society that STILL produces this mindset amongst so many men/boys................in my lifetime i feel like it has actually become worse than it was when i was a youngster...............