Is there any validity in the "Men's Movement"?

[Helen Daniels]

That 'everyday sexism' thing could also be called 'everyday violence' , grabbing and yelling at people is just assault, more serious if they grab your bits, that's reflected in the law although usually not reported, people who behave like that are sociopaths and they attack men and women. I read a lot of studies and while they think it's about 3 out of 10 women who are raped, it's only about 1 in 20 men who have raped anyone, with harassment it's the same only much more common since it rarely has comebacks, a minority attacking loads of people while the majority stay quiet out of fear. I'd imagine it's the same for women, while physical violence is less common, that isn't to say there aren't other ways to attack and injure people without laying a finger on them

I think that's exactly why some people want a 'men's movement', it's much more acceptable to attack men than women, but noone wants to be attacked

 

[ElizabethofYork]

it's only about 1 in 20 men who have raped anyone,

"ONLY"?

???

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I've been looking at some of the Mens' Movement Forums recently. The hatred and venom towards ALL women has to be seen to be believed.

 

[Helen Daniels]

"ONLY"?

???

In comparison to the amount of women who are raped. My point was that while rape is shockingly commonplace, even in the developed world, there are a lot more victims than perpetrators

 

[8ball]

I've been looking at some of the Mens' Movement Forums recently. The hatred and venom towards ALL women has to be seen to be believed.

ALL of them? I haven't looked at any but that's pretty sad (most searches for 'MRM' seem to mostly point to blogs saying 'look at this bunch of mentalists!').

I did see a couple of PUA sites when we were discussing them a while back and it was clear that lot don't see women as people at all - more of a vagina attached to a 'vagina denial system' that needs to be hacked with the correct pattern of responses to allow entry.

I'm not sure whether that's better or worse than open hatred...

 

[toggle]

more of a vagina attached to a 'vagina denial system' that needs to be hacked with the correct pattern of responses to allow entry.

that has got to be the best one line description of their content that i've read.

and ti's clear that their problem with feminism is that it prevents their hacking systems from being effective.

and personally, i think i prefer being loathed to being seen as sub human. hatred at least recognises my humanity.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

ALL of them? I haven't looked at any but that's pretty sad (most searches for 'MRM' seem to mostly point to blogs saying 'look at this bunch of mentalists!').

I did see a couple of PUA sites when we were discussing them a while back and it was clear that lot don't see women as people at all - more of a vagina attached to a 'vagina denial system' that needs to be hacked with the correct pattern of responses to allow entry.

I'm not sure whether that's better or worse than open hatred...

Not all. The ones I've been looking at recently are by a group of weirdos who call themselves MGTOW's - Men Going Their Own Way. The hatred towards women is absolutely jaw dropping.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not all. The ones I've been looking at recently are by a group of weirdos who call themselves MGTOW's - Men Going Their Own Way. The hatred towards women is absolutely jaw dropping.

You get female separatist groups that hate men, too. It looks like they're similar in that they deny the humanity on some levels of the sex they hate.

 

[frogwoman]

Are you saying check MY privelege or yours? I guess that depends on whether we're going to consider being born NT or autistic to be the privileged position.

It ties in with what I've been saying on this thread but I've grown a bit sceptical of thinking of things in terms of 'spectrums'*, whether that be left/right, autistic/NT, psychopath/non-psychopath etc. - I think the tendency to group things in this way is down the human propensity to spot patterns, then name them, then ascribe meaning to the members of the traits that 'cluster' together and group people accordingly, and eventually arrange culture around these forms of understanding to the point where predictions can become self-fulfilling prophesies**. But that's a whole n'other thread and isn't much more than a musing, reallyy.

But anyway, I'm not convinced when looking at 'autism' that everything in that group is of the same 'kind'. I don't think I can be 'cured' personally any more than a cat can be 'cured' of not being like a dog. Plus, I wouldn't want to be, partly because my identity is now tied up with my upbringing and fumbling accomodations to the condition and partly because I think some of the ways in which I see and process things differently can have value both socially and personally. Some parts of it I would never want to give up, though it would be really interesting to really experience how life is for a 'normal' person (a 'dual boot' brain would be my ideal, which I'm told is something only an Aspie would say).

Where someone has deficits in communication I think that can probably be down to a lot of things once brains start going wrong, and when there is serious suffering or debilitation involved it's natural to want to 'fix' that, but there have been cases in the past where people who were thought to have no 'inner life' to speak of went on to write books, compose music etc. and we need to be careful about both what we're 'fixing' and what we're breaking in the process. In terms of our understanding it's incredibly recently that lobotomies were considered to be 'fixing' people in terms of the narrow criteria of the professionals making the judgments.

* - yeah, I know that should probably be 'spectra' but that might cause some unnecessary confusion

** - with end results as absurd as classifying kitchen implements in terms of the seating arrangements of the national assembly of another country over two hundred years ago.

Sorry about not responding straight away to your excellent post 8ball

I think you are spot on with you view of spectrums - I suppose my problem with a lot of these labels like NT etc is the fact that it's assuming that someone who's 'normal' can have perfect social skills and function really well in society whereas in fact I've met autistic people who make friends easier than me! and a lot of the diagnosis of autism etc just tends to be quite arbitrary, for example the guy who I knew when I worked at the football stadium really find it very hard to act appropriately although he was a lovely guy but the only thing he was diagnosed with was dyslexia. And I have met people diagnosed with aspergers who seemingly have nothing wrong with them (although to be fair I'm not a doctor?)

I do think the way in which my parents reacted to my behaviour when I was a kid probably led to a lot of my mental health problems later in life and if they hadn't reacted the way they had I might not have the issues with bad self esteem I do today, which has taken me a really long time to get over.

Like in reality nobody is 'normal' and I think that having experiences with struggling to fit in and knowing what is expected is something many people experience even if they aren't 'autistic' if you see what I mean?

I guess I wanted to know what you thought about things like the campaigns against charities like autism speaks etc which a mate of mine is involved in, although I think that she is probably right and they are dodgy I find it a bit hard to understand her argument sometimes.

Yeah I guess I was thinking of people who need help dressing themselves etc who obviously find it really hard to deal with stuff even if they may be really clever in other ways, but I suppose what's needed in that case is a lot more support for those people, rather than trying to give them treatments that may do more harm than good as you say, or just writing them off, and given improvements in technology and how much we know about autism and related conditions there's no excuse for 'the system' to be doing that these days.

Sorry if my reply was a bit confused?

 

[mentalchik]

That 'everyday sexism' thing could also be called 'everyday violence' , grabbing and yelling at people is just assault, more serious if they grab your bits, that's reflected in the law although usually not reported, people who behave like that are sociopaths and they attack men and women. I read a lot of studies and while they think it's about 3 out of 10 women who are raped, it's only about 1 in 20 men who have raped anyone, with harassment it's the same only much more common since it rarely has comebacks, a minority attacking loads of people while the majority stay quiet out of fear. I'd imagine it's the same for women, while physical violence is less common, that isn't to say there aren't other ways to attack and injure people without laying a finger on them

I think that's exactly why some people want a 'men's movement', it's much more acceptable to attack men than women, but noone wants to be attacked

I take your point but i seriously doubt young boys dressed in school uniform experience sexual comments aimed at them by grown women as a daily experience.............the article wasn't just talking about violence per say but the level of 'sexual' comment aimed at women from a very early age..........

 

[Orang Utan]

Is there a source for the claim that one in twenty men are rapists? That is absolutely shocking if it's true

 

[8ball]

Is there a source for the claim that one in twenty men are rapists? That is absolutely shocking if it's true

Shocking in terms of such a high proportion or conversely shocking in terms of how prolific the one in twenty are, raping just under 7 each on average?

 

[Orang Utan]

The proportion but the frequency is appalling too
I must know a few.

 

[Casually Red]

Shocking in terms of such a high proportion or conversely shocking in terms of how prolific the one in twenty are, raping just under 7 each on average?

could we see a source though ? Ive never heard this claim before. Not doubting theres a serious problem with rape and sexual assault but Id like to a see a source for that particular claim.

 

[J Ed]

ALL of them?

Have a look yourself...

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/

http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/

 

[8ball]

could we see a source though ? Ive never heard this claim before. Not doubting theres a serious problem with rape and sexual assault but Id like to a see a source for that particular claim.

Wasn't my statistic, but wouldn't mind seeing sources either. I was just going from the point of view that you could be shocked on either count given the difference in proportions.

 

[frogwoman]

There have been quite a few surveys that show similar numbers, a very small number of people are responsible for most rapes.

 

[Baboonking]

I think 1 in 20 statistic comes from David Lisak
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...JhCxnVaNPA&bvm=bv.63934634,bs.1,d.cWc&cad=rja

 

[Casually Red]

ive found reference to a survey that bases that figure on an anonymous poll of US college males who were asked whether theyd ever forced or otherwise co erced someone into having sex with them . It doesnt specify whether the co ercion involved whining ,whinging and badgering or threats and blackmail . Im not sure therefore how reliable that is.
Im also not sure if thats were the figure even comes from , so Id be cautious in accepting it but willing to accept it if it came from somewhere more credible. Havent found one though .

 

[Casually Red]

I think 1 in 20 statistic comes from David Lisak
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http://www.wcsap.org/sites/www.wcsap.org/files/uploads/webinars/SV%20on%20Campus/Repeat%20Rape.pdf&ei=zXw8U82BF7TRsASup4CYDQ&usg=AFQjCNF-rFniqKdq-UV-lbqDJhCxnVaNPA&bvm=bv.63934634,bs.1,d.cWc&cad=rja

thanks for that, ill read it later

 

[8ball]

Have a look yourself...

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/

http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/

There's nothing on the front pages saying they hate ALL women. And it's a bit of a depressing slog to go beyond the front page, frankly, so I'll just take your word for it this time.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Not sure if I'm allowed to link to another forum and I'll remove if asked ... but look at this delightful Men's Rights Forum

http://www.mgtowhq.com/

 

[Helen Daniels]

I take your point but i seriously doubt young boys dressed in school uniform experience sexual comments aimed at them by grown women as a daily experience.............the article wasn't just talking about violence per say but the level of 'sexual' comment aimed at women from a very early age..........

Of course not, I was saying that boys will be subjected to violence on a daily basis. I wasn't trying to belittle how prevalent or distressing day to day sexual harassment is, I was just pointing out that it's not like young men can go anywhere they like feeling safe. For example, sexual harassment is much more of a problem for women, but being stabbed is much more of a problem for men

I was just saying that I think these 'men's groups' in part come from resentment about the idea that you shouldn't complain

 

[toggle]

I guess I wanted to know what you thought about things like the campaigns against charities like autism speaks etc which a mate of mine is involved in, although I think that she is probably right and they are dodgy I find it a bit hard to understand her argument sometimes.

+

linky please

 

[toggle]

I was just saying that I think these 'men's groups' in part come from resentment about the idea that you shouldn't complain

no.they use that problem to look like they have an actual point, but that isn't what this is about. they reinforce the idea men shouldn't complain in every area other than their complaints about 'vagina denial systems'. with the idea that all the other problems men face would simply go away if women would simply know their place.


as for the issue of random violence, like sexual assault, that is, mostly a problem of male behavior. the vast majority of men are perfectly capable of not assaulting or raping anyone. the minority of men who use so-called masculine traits as an excuse to behave badly to others are not only a danger, but their excuses are an insult to every bloke who dosnt' use such excuses and is perfectly capable of being a man without equating being a man with being a complete arsehole.

 

[likesfish]

Pick up artists would appear to be much happier if they were gay as they come across as wanting absouletly nothing from a woman apart from sex and thats something they do or get a blow job not something to be enjoyed.
Oh fuck they make me come across as a caring human being just how fucked in the head do you have to be to make me look caring

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Pick up artists would appear to be much happier if they were gay as they come across as wanting absouletly nothing from a woman apart from sex and thats something they do or get a blow job not something to be enjoyed.
Oh fuck they make me come across as a caring human being just how fucked in the head do you have to be to make me look caring

Need to be careful not to overgeneralise here, though. There are men who want more than sex and women who don't, too. These things are fluid and variable. I think not recognising that things are fluid and variable can lead to the gender-hatred - generalising from one experience to the whole of a gender.

 

[Helen Daniels]

no.they use that problem to look like they have an actual point, but that isn't what this is about. they reinforce the idea men shouldn't complain in every area other than their complaints about 'vagina denial systems'. with the idea that all the other problems men face would simply go away if women would simply know their place.


as for the issue of random violence, like sexual assault, that is, mostly a problem of male behavior. the vast majority of men are perfectly capable of not assaulting or raping anyone. the minority of men who use so-called masculine traits as an excuse to behave badly to others are not only a danger, but their excuses are an insult to every bloke who dosnt' use such excuses and is perfectly capable of being a man without equating being a man with being a complete arsehole.

Opinions like this are what I was trying to get at. The violence in society is something that we all have to deal with, something we all suffer from, but for you it's just 'a problem of male behaviour', it's like saying 'it must go back to their mothers'. Doesn't help anyone

The men who hate women and see it as a battle are the extreme of something much more commonplace, just like the women who hate men or the religious people who want to kill everyone

 

[frogwoman]

+

linky please

There's loads of stuff on the internet about it

This is one thing she showed me, and I had a mate at uni who was also involved in these anti curing autism campaigns.


https://sites.google.com/site/notautismspeaks/home

 

[likesfish]

Need to be careful not to overgeneralise here, though. There are men who want more than sex and women who don't, too. These things are fluid and variable. I think not recognising that things are fluid and variable can lead to the gender-hatred - generalising from one experience to the whole of a gender.

Fair enough
Although the weird pick up artist mra bloggs mostly seem one step away from wearing their next victim/conquest as a skin suit