Is there any validity in the "Men's Movement"?

[littlebabyjesus]

Cross-cultural comparisons of mental health are a minefield, tbh.

This study doesn't tell me anything I didn't expect, really. It says that schizophrenia is a diagnosis primarily of 'developed countries'. (It doesn't really address the problem of what that diagnosis really is.) It says that rates may tend to be higher in migrant populations. This stuff is tricky, particularly when you think of the 'Thud' experiment and what it showed about the cultural aspect of diagnosis.

 

[8ball]

Yeah, that 'Thud' experiment stuff is proper scary.

I sometimes get auditory hallucinations when going to sleep - no way I'm mentioning them to a Doctor...

 

[Blagsta]

I think for what I just said to be right, there would have to be a correlation between economic inequality and mental health problems. I've not looked into it, but it should be potentially falsifiable, I would think.

(Complicated by the problem of social mobility - economic inequality plus some kind of 'meritocracy' balls about everyone getting what they deserve - the American Dream, for instance.)

The link between inequality and poor mental health (and poor health generally) is fairly well established. Look up Black Report (interesting story there too - Thatcher government tried to suppress it's publication) and Marmot Review.

 

[Blagsta]

Yes, well that's where the different levels of explanation come in. The same chemical processes are going on in the brain, so it's not surprising that they react similarly to drugs. But the story of how the person came to reach that situation is what Laing was interested in. That most psychiatrists in his era simply didn't address this question is extraordinary, imo. It led to what was, imo, a really damaging division between the medical model and other forms of therapy. We still have that.

Laing took loads from psychoanalysis.

 

[Blagsta]

I'm not sure there is any evidence of an increased proportion. I've not seen any decent measurements either.



This was very much my point all along. We should be wary of drawing conclusions because something seems intuitively so.



I was arguing that depression *isn't* socially constructed, but that monitoring and reporting has changed markedly. The language we use around these issues has also changed. To the degree that it has signalled the lessening of stigma I think that's a good thing.

Depression manifests differently in different cultures according to psychologist Richard Bentall (his book Madness Explained is a good read), in West African countries for example, it's experienced more physically than in Northern European countries.

 

[Blagsta]

Didn't know about the Japanese re-defining of schizophrenia - will have to look that up.

British clinical psychologist professional organisation called last year for abandonment of schizophrenia as a diagnostic category

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/may/12/psychiatrists-under-fire-mental-health

 

[Blagsta]

Yeah, that 'Thud' experiment stuff is proper scary.

I sometimes get auditory hallucinations when going to sleep - no way I'm mentioning them to a Doctor...

Romme and Escher did loads of work on the prevalence of voice hearing. It's much more common than you'd think.

 

[Blagsta]

Interesting paper here
http://m.apt.rcpsych.org/content/10/3/216.full
on links between poverty and poor mental health.

 

[Blagsta]

Joseph Rowntree Foundation do a lot of work on this stuff too

 

[goldenecitrone]

The link between inequality and poor mental health (and poor health generally) is fairly well established. Look up Black Report (interesting story there too - Thatcher government tried to suppress it's publication) and Marmot Review.

Is it a causal link though? More than a correlation.

 

[Blagsta]

Is it a causal link though? More than a correlation.

Yes, it's a causal link. Many factors involved of course, but definitely causal.

 

[8ball]

Yes, it's a causal link. Many factors involved of course, but definitely causal.

How is causality established in this case?

 

[goldenecitrone]

Yes, it's a causal link. Many factors involved of course, but definitely causal.

For things like schizophrenia and manic depression? Which report would you recommend, I know you've flagged up a few already.

 

[8ball]

Romme and Escher did loads of work on the prevalence of voice hearing. It's much more common than you'd think.

I read some reports last year suggesting hallucinations, especially auditory, were far more common than previously supposed among people with no other signs of illness leading perfectly normal well-adjusted lives. I guess it's the knowing where they're coming from that marks the chief difference. The voices I get when nodding off are always saying extremely banal things.

 

[Blagsta]

How is causality established in this case?

I've got a few papers on this, I'll try and dig them out tomorrow. Basically stress and trauma are major factors in poor mental health.

 

[quimcunx]

So what would the manifesto/mission statement of Men against the Patriarchy look like?

 

[8ball]

I've got a few papers on this, I'll try and dig them out tomorrow. Basically stress and trauma are major factors in poor mental health.

Stress and trauma I can understand, but that's a stretch from simple inequality. Especially inequality in the absence of absolute (rather than relative) poverty.

 

[Blagsta]

For things like schizophrenia and manic depression? Which report would you recommend, I know you've flagged up a few already.

It's well established, for example, that psychosis is more prevalent in densely populated urban areas for example. Trauma is a big factor in psychosis, look at the work of Richard Bentall , John Read, Joanna Moncrieff or Philip Thomas.

 

[8ball]

So what would the manifesto/mission statement of Men against the Patriarchy look like?

What do we want?
Freedom to wear pink and sniffle a bit during that bit in I Am Legend!!
When do we want it?
As soon as is practicable given our childcare commitments!!

 

[Blagsta]

I read some reports last year suggesting hallucinations, especially auditory, were far more common than previously supposed among people with no other signs of illness leading perfectly normal well-adjusted lives. I guess it's the knowing where they're coming from that marks the chief difference. The voices I get when nodding off are always saying extremely banal things.

Yeah, the main predictor for distress on hearing voices is the relationship and explanation the hearer has for the voices.

Rufus May does interesting work talking with people's voices.

 

[Blagsta]

Stress and trauma I can understand, but that's a stretch from simple inequality. Especially inequality in the absence of absolute (rather than relative) poverty.

Inequality and poverty cause stress and trauma.

 

[quimcunx]

It was a genuine question.

 

[Blagsta]

http://opendialogueapproach.co.uk

Interesting approach to voice hearing

 

[Blagsta]

Also don't discount relative poverty - what constitutes poverty is clearly a social construct.

 

[8ball]

Inequality and poverty cause stress and trauma.

Absolute poverty, yes. In terms of inequality by itself (ie. just some people having a lot more than others, rather than some people being grindingly poor), well I can see how it might but I've not personally seen all that much in the way of evidence. I think it may depend to a large degree on the individual - I used to work in a job where people were, in that particular department, paid near-as-dammit identically. I was quite happy with the arrangement but on the whole they seemed much happier when the opportunity came along for certain individuals to make significantly more.

 

[8ball]

Also don't discount relative poverty - what constitutes poverty is clearly a social construct.

To a degree, yes, but I don't accept that malnutrition is a social construct.

 

[goldenecitrone]

So what would the manifesto/mission statement of Men against the Patriarchy look like?

More power to Elbow.

 

[8ball]

It was a genuine question.

I nearly asked a similar question earlier about what 'women against the patriarchy' might look like, but thought better of it.

 

[Blagsta]

Sorry, more thoughts on this (it's one of my main areas of interest) - developing countries have better recovery rates for psychotic illness than developed countries (again see work of Richard Bentall), the likely explanation is to do with social networks. We are much more atomised and the dominant ideology is one of individualism in the West, more so as a result of neo liberalism.

 

[Blagsta]

Absolute poverty, yes. In terms of inequality by itself (ie. just some people having a lot more than others, rather than some people being grindingly poor), well I can see how it might but I've not personally seen all that much in the way of evidence. I think it may depend to a large degree on the individual - I used to work in a job where people were, in that particular department, paid near-as-dammit identically. I was quite happy with the arrangement but on the whole they seemed much happier when the opportunity came along for certain individuals to make significantly more.

Of course it depends on individual factors, it's not a direct relationship. Bit the link is there and the evidence is there.