Is there any validity in the "Men's Movement"?

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There might be some legitimate issues here, definitely on the issue of suicide, and a lot of the time I think the line that "patriachy harms men too" is correct but isn't sufficient to explain or deal with these things in their entirety, that's a good start but it's a start not a conclusion, but on the other hand I've never come accross any sort of Mens Rights movement that wasn't filled to the brim with the most disgusting misogynistic women-hating arseholes so I hold no faith whatsoever that we'll see a Men's Rights movement come along to deal with these problems that some men face.

absolutely.

it's never going to be sufficient to state 'patriarchy harms men' anymore than it was ever sufficient to state 'patriarchy harms women'. it's a huge oversimplification of some exceedingly complex issues, but it is IMo a good starting point.

but with the divisive issue about male engagement in/with feminist activism, that isn't really the place to start dealing with all of the complexities of the ways the inequalities of our society screw over men. but it seems to be the only approach that is actually addressing what is behind the problems many men face, without seeking to place blame on women.

I don't think most of feminism is ready to step away from attacking women's equalities as a primary goal. nor do I feel that it is right that a woman led/dominated movement should be defining the debate on this. I agree that it is unlikely we will see men's rights being considered in a thoughtful way by a men's movement for quite some time. but the fact that this is being openly discussed is a step forwards.

 

[D'wards]

We have had two discussions on just this recently - Do these particular arseholes really deserve any more?

Ah sorry, did a quick search but couldnae find anything else

 

[Orang Utan]

Ah sorry, did a quick search but couldnae find anything else

Ignore him, he's a monomaniac who loves to piss all over peoples' reheated rice

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There are some areas where men do have it a lot tougher than women; rights over children born or unborn, suicide rates are much higher for men, men die a lot younger, male victims of domestic abuse or sexual assault not taken seriously, either by the police or wider society.

I think there's a need to distinguish between things that can be blamed on society/others and for which some kind of political movement might be useful and things that really cannot.

So in your above list, it is not so long ago here that men had rights over women and their children. It's still like that in other places. And I think it is right that women should have more rights over their children than men. Women give birth to them, and that is a difference that matters.

Men die a bit younger (let's not exaggerate), and the reasons for this are not totally clear, although the gap is narrowing. But it might be simply because being a bit bigger and stronger carries with it a genetic trade-off in terms of longevity. A movement against that is about as sensible as a women's movement against the menopause.

dv and rape of men is an area in which attitudes are bad, but it is not the same scale of problem as dv and rape of women, and I don't see why it cannot be incorporated into the same political position. I don't quite see the need for a separate movement against dv against men.

Most of the above points can be addressed best not by a men's movement but just by a general movement aimed at improving social justice. Whatever men's problems may be, political disempowerment isn't one of them.

 

[8ball]

Whatever men's problems may be, political disempowerment isn't one of them.

There are plenty of politically disempowered men. It's just that they aren't politically disempowered because they are men.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There are plenty of politically disempowered men. It's just that they aren't politically disempowered because they are men.

yes. You've phrased it better than I did.

 

[toggle]

So in your above list, it is not so long ago here that men had rights over women and their children. It's still like that in other places. And I think it is right that women should have more rights over their children than men. Women give birth to them, and that is a difference that matters.

I don't think it necessarily should. And not to the extent it does. While there is arguments relating to care of babies with regards to breastfeeding and maternity leave due to the physical effects of pregnancy and birth, there's very little behind many of the arguments that favour women as child carers that isn't based on prejudices and societal conditioning.

There are plenty of politically disempowered men. It's just that they aren't politically disempowered because they are men.

yes. but there are plenty of other issues that do matter in disempowering men due to stereotypes of masculinity. ignoring them because of male political empowerment and female disempowerment is wrong. it is ignoring those issues that has led to the existance of MRA groups IMO.

 

[KeeperofDragons]

I'm not sure about a men's movement as such but there is a class issue at the back of this. Working class men in some areas of the country have a far lower life expectancy the well off men in other areas for example. Another issue is men's health (cancer) unlike women where there is a lot of information on how to check your breasts & what's involved when it comes to cervical smears the same for men (testicular cancer, prostate) is greeted with a kind of moral outrage or at best sniggers which prevents men from seeking help.

 

[8ball]

yes. but there are plenty of other issues that do matter in disempowering men due to stereotypes of masculinity. ignoring them because of male political empowerment and female disempowerment is wrong. it is ignoring those issues that has led to the existance of MRA groups IMO.

I agree up until the last sentence, but I think if you start chipping away at the power certain men have over women then some degree of backlash is inevitable.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't think it necessarily should. And not to the extent it does. While there is arguments relating to care of babies with regards to breastfeeding and maternity leave due to the physical effects of pregnancy and birth, there's very little behind many of the arguments that favour women as child carers that isn't based on prejudices and societal conditioning.

Here's where improvements in social justice for everyone are the way forward, imo. I'd like to see men have more rights wrt paternity leave, for instance, (and to see men actually taking those rights up), and one side-effect of that could be that inequality between men and women in the workplace wrt wages may narrow. With rights towards kids, the most important thing, imo, is not gender but who is the primary carer - it is more often women than men, but if the father is the primary carer, then he should get the rights due to a primary carer.

yes. but there are plenty of other issues that do matter in disempowering men due to stereotypes of masculinity. ignoring them because of male political empowerment and female disempowerment is wrong. it is ignoring those issues that has led to the existance of MRA groups IMO.

I agree with this, and recognise personally its negative effect on me, but I don't think a political movement can address it. Again, a movement aimed more generally at improved social justice for all is, imo, the best way to improve this kind of thing.

One thing I am very suspicious of is the idea that men suffer today from a 'crisis of masculinity' due to female empowerment. I think that is probably total balls, that men quite possibly suffered a whole lot more in the past from the need to live up to gender expectations.

 

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I agree up until the last sentence, but I think if you start chipping away at the power certain men have over women then some degree of backlash is inevitable.

perhaps 'MRA gain credibility' from ignoring those issues would be better wording.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

perhaps 'MRA gain credibility' from ignoring those issues would be better wording.

Such movements have precious little credibility, though, don't they? For various reasons, most men run a mile.

 

[Frances Lengel]

There was a small men's movement in the 1970s, which was pro-feminist FWIW.

Short arse twats are often the worst. Pocket atlas bastards.

 

[8ball]

One thing I am very suspicious of is the idea that men suffer today from a 'crisis of masculinity' due to female empowerment. I think that is probably total balls, that men quite possibly suffered a whole lot more in the past from the need to live up to gender expectations.

I don't think we're necessarily talking about the same men. I think those that liked the old role definitions, and especially those that secured a place in a particular hierarchy of men by striving to live up to them, are those that are left most bewildered by the dissolution of traditional social roles.

 

[Orang Utan]

I'm more likely to be a member of this club:
http://www.dullmensclub.com

 

[killer b]

I wish there was a decent pejorative word for the kind of man who thinks men get a rawer deal than women.

Glitter nailed it with 'absolute fucking helmet' imo.

 

[D'wards]

One thing I am very suspicious of is the idea that men suffer today from a 'crisis of masculinity' due to female empowerment. I think that is probably total balls, that men quite possibly suffered a whole lot more in the past from the need to live up to gender expectations.

I totally agree. Not so long ago to see a man cry was a deeply shameful thing, but thanks to dear Gazza it became more acceptable, and then because it was over football at the most critical situation.

 

[toggle]

Such movements have precious little credibility, though, don't they? For various reasons, most men run a mile.

you have MRA groups that exert their masculinity by attacking women. wheras the issue should be attacking the expectations of masculinity. which involves accepting there are aspects of that which hurt men. which seems to be quite hard for a lot of blokes to be able to discuss. i'm assuming the man= strong sort of thing is behind that. so the same stereotypes and expectations that create the male inequalities make it hard to admit the problems it causes and to address the underlying issues.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't think we're necessarily talking about the same men. I think those that liked the old role definitions, and especially those that secured a place in a particular hierarchy of men by striving to live up to them, are those that are left most bewildered by the dissolution of traditional social roles.

I guess it's always been true - for both men and women - that those who are happiest to conform to gender expectations have it easier. The old idea that happiness is not getting what you want but wanting what you have.

Maybe I'm a long way off, but isn't this mostly a generational thing? Perhaps in those generations that experienced a transition there are those who are bewildered, but are boys growing up now bewildered by it in the same way, or are they growing up socialised differently? You'd hope so.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

you have MRA groups that exert their masculinity by attacking women. wheras the issue should be attacking the expectations of masculinity. which involves accepting there are aspects of that which hurt men. which seems to be quite hard for a lot of blokes to be able to discuss. i'm assuming the man= strong sort of thing is behind that. so the same stereotypes and expectations that create the male inequalities make it hard to admit the problems it causes and to address the underlying issues.

Yes, I think this is right.

 

[Blagsta]

I wish there was a decent pejorative word for the kind of man who thinks men get a rawer deal than women.

Wanker?

 

[boohoo]

In the 1990s, I volunteered with a young women's youth work project. When we talked with the youth workers of other groups about doing boys only workshops, they weren't so keen to do that - I think they didn't feel that young men needed separate attention. Although talking to some of the volunteers, it was clear that discussions with both boys and girls present tend to be less successful than working with either the girls or boys.

I also during this period went to a conference called men and women working together for a change.

 

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Yes, I think this is right.

thank fuck for that.

i've looked at some of the stuff out there about how to be a feminist man, and how to deal with that shit without being a fucknugget and the general response to it is that a lot of the feminist orientated stuff on this issue is more than a little patronising.

 

[eoin_k]

Wanker?

The Achilles Heel article on bashing the bishop suggests that you run the risk of giving wankers a bad name.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

thank fuck for that.
.

Problem is, for the reasons you gave, it's a bugger of a problem to address. I would hope that the new generation of boys growing up now will have less of an issue.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Don't see a problem with taking an interest in "men's issues" myself.

 

[Orang Utan]

Don't see a problem with taking an interest in "men's issues" myself.

No one has a problem with that

 

[J Ed]

It's interesting that everyone I have had the displeasure of meeting who describes themselves as an 'MRA' has disgusting views about the economically disenfranchised and ethnic minorities. They don't care about other people, they just want to take rights away from others.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's interesting that everyone I have had the displeasure of meeting who describes themselves as an 'MRA' has disgusting views about the economically disenfranchised and ethnic minorities. They don't care about other people, they just want to take rights away from others.

I've never knowingly met one, tbh. I think I may have been rather lucky.

 

[likesfish]

Theirs "men who care" in brighton which is ooh I changed a nappy this week I'm a care giver
The iron john back to our warrior nature FFS just join the TA you get a rifle instead of a speaking stick and waterproofs handy in ashdown forest in febuary
Then theirs the red pill rapist advocate wankers

While a mens movement that got men talking about real mens problems might help chances are it would just attract idiots.