Is there any validity in the "Men's Movement"?

[dylanredefined]

Sometimes depression is due to having a crap life.
Sometimes its just because something in your brain is broken. And sometimes it is a combination of both

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Sometimes depression is due to having a crap life.
Sometimes its just because something in your brain is broken. And sometimes it is a combination of both

Yes.

Hence working towards the general good is generally good. It addresses a lot of things all at once, depression being one of them. Social justice, and even just the belief that social justice might be possible (hope), are really important.

(I cling to hope with my fingernails.)

 

[8ball]

Social justice, and even just the belief that social justice might be possible (hope), are really important.

Is social justice the same as income equality in your mind?

 

[Doctor Carrot]

So we have an increase in feeling things are outside one's control, narcissism AND Just World beliefs... this could be explained simply by a medical establishment that wants to pathologise just about everything.

Yeah I'm completely aware of that possibility but I don't think it really negates the article's point. I don't think the increase of arrogant dick heads is a good thing, overly pathologised or not, nor do I think the increase of misery and anxiety is a good thing, overly pathologised or not. All of these things have increased under neo liberalism.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Is social justice the same as income equality in your mind?

It isn't just economic equality, but it includes it. tbh there are other things that social justice cannot address, such as broken relationships. But it's a step. A very bloody good step.

 

[8ball]

Yeah I'm completely aware of that possibility but I don't think it really negates the article's point. I don't think the increase of arrogant dick heads is a good thing, overly pathologised or not, nor do I think the increase of misery and anxiety is a good thing, overly pathologised or not. All of these things have increased under neo liberalism.

Couldn't move for arrogant dick heads when I was growing up in the 70s.

I think misery and anxiety are pretty hard to measure beyond the individual level too.
To my mind, lots of people appear quite happy.

 

[8ball]

It isn't just economic equality, but it includes it. tbh there are other things that social justice cannot address, such as broken relationships. But it's a step. A very bloody good step.

So is economic equality the same as economic justice?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Couldn't move for arrogant dick heads when I was growing up in the 70s.

I think misery and anxiety are pretty hard to measure beyond the individual level too.
To my mind, lots of people appear quite happy.

True. People hide their unhappiness. Out of politeness as much as anything.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So is economic equality the same as economic justice?

Ah, yes. Yes it is. We're all worth more or less the same and our economic situation should reflect that, if it is to be just. That's the way to tackle the internal contradictions that Laing focussed on.

 

[8ball]

True. People hide their unhappiness. Out of politeness as much as anything.

I think lots of people actually are quite happy.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think lots of people actually are quite happy.

Plus also, they may be happy in the moment that you're talking to them, mostly because you're talking to them, but unhappy at other times. Happiness isn't a permanent state.

 

[8ball]

Ah, yes. Yes it is. We're all worth more or less the same and our economic situation should reflect that, if it is to be just. That's the way to tackle the internal contradictions that Laing focussed on.

So in your opinion income is an expression of how much a *person is worth*, rather than, say, a marker of their current purchasing power.
That sounds like a destructive belief to me.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So in your opinion income is an expression of how much a *person is worth*, rather than, say, a marker of their current purchasing power.
That sounds like a destructive belief to me.

Income is a marker of their current position within the system and ability to demand payment for what they do. It isn't an expression of what a person is worth, but it should be. I don't get hung up on it (actually I do a bit), but yes, it is a belief.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Couldn't move for arrogant dick heads when I was growing up in the 70s.

And? No one's suggesting it's a new phenomena but an increased phenomena.

I think misery and anxiety are pretty hard to measure beyond the individual level too.
To my mind, lots of people appear quite happy.

Again, and? The sun appears to move in the sky but it's obviously not true is it?

I agree that it's difficult to measure but how else are you supposed to determine whether more people are depressed and anxious or not without a way of reporting it? I'd agree that these things are overly pathologised to the point of giving out too many drugs as a solution but I still don't see how this negates the article's point? This goes back to the question as to what extent these things are socially constructed, to what extent the criteria for depression conforms with societal norms and so on. It's an interesting debate but having had depression I don't think things like not being able to get out of bed for days, shower regularly, talk to people even though you want to but can't are really to do with societal norms and more to do with being depressed.

 

[8ball]

Income is a marker of their current position within the system and ability to demand payment for what they do. It isn't an expression of what a person is worth, but it should be. I don't get hung up on it, but yes, it is a belief.

Income isn't necessarily a marker of ability to demand payment. We could both be plumbers and I could work for 20 hours a week where you work for 40. Assuming similar value jobs completed in the same time would it be justice for us to be paid equally. If we were being paid by our customers I certainly don't think it would be justice for *my* customers...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Income isn't necessarily a marker of ability to demand payment. We could both be plumbers and I could work for 20 hours a week where you work for 40. Assuming similar value jobs completed in the same time would it be justice for us to be paid equally. If we were being paid by our customers I certainly don't think it would be justice for *my* customers...

Good question. I am quicker at my job than most people, hence partly why I post on here so much. These are things to be negotiated at the level of the co-op general meeting.

 

[8ball]

And? No one's suggesting it's a new phenomena but an increased phenomena.

I'm not sure there is any evidence of an increased proportion. I've not seen any decent measurements either.

Again, and? The sun appears to move in the sky but it's obviously not true is it?

This was very much my point all along. We should be wary of drawing conclusions because something seems intuitively so.

I agree that it's difficult to measure but how else are you supposed to determine whether more people are depressed and anxious or not without a way of reporting it? I'd agree that these things are overly pathologised to the point of giving out too many drugs as a solution but I still don't see how this negates the article's point? This goes back to the question as to what extent these things are socially constructed, to what extent the criteria for depression conforms with societal norms and so on. It's an interesting debate but having had depression I don't think things like not being able to get out of bed for days, shower regularly, talk to people even though you want to but can't are really to do with societal norms and more to do with being depressed.

I was arguing that depression *isn't* socially constructed, but that monitoring and reporting has changed markedly. The language we use around these issues has also changed. To the degree that it has signalled the lessening of stigma I think that's a good thing.

 

[J Ed]

I've not read the original stuff or the criticism (if I spent less time on here I might well be much better read*).

What's wrong with the Policy Exchange stuff?


* - In my mind. In reality I'd just be really good at Tekken.

Here's some criticism of the criticism http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/jul/09/spirit-level-policy-exchange

 

[8ball]

Here's some criticism of the criticism http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/jul/09/spirit-level-policy-exchange

Thanks - will take a look.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This was very much my point all along. We should be wary of drawing conclusions because something seems intuitively so..

And this is a very good example of that. What I've been saying should be falsifiable, as I said, if it's just balls. I may have a go at falsifying it!

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

In addition to the arguments about neo-liberalism and inequality I agree with some scholars who point out these sort of movements are trying to enact forms of male solidarity that has been eroded as it existed traditionally (e.g trade unionism). Sort of fitting irony that it should resemble a caricature of identity politics (not just because it's obviously a reaction to feminism).

PUA [the seduction community etc.] is nearly ubiquitous in the young generations tbh mostly not serious but I think it has been compared to the same sort of culture fostered by Playboy and such in the 1950's, a kind of solidarity at the expense of women.

 

[8ball]

And this is a very good example of that. What I've been saying should be falsifiable, as I said, if it's just balls. I may have a go at falsifying it!

You've said a few things - which specific thing are you going to have a bash at falsifying?

 

[Doctor Carrot]

I'm not sure there is any evidence of an increased proportion. I've not seen any decent measurements either.

Well according to that article narcissism has increased since the 1970s, he seemed to suggest that the same scales are used then as are used now but I can't be sure without checking his sources thoroughly.

I was arguing that depression *isn't* socially constructed, but that monitoring and reporting has changed markedly. The language we use around these issues has also changed. To the degree that it has signalled the lessening of stigma I think that's a good thing.

Yeah which can indeed increase reporting of it. What needs to be done is a measurement that accounts for differences in reporting and monitoring in the past. I'm sure it probably has been done, if so would be interesting to know its conclusions as it would give a clearer picture as to whether neo liberalism is destructive to mental health. To me, intuitively I admit, it is and it's not surprising it is.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You've said a few things - which specific thing are you going to have a bash at falsifying?

Income inequality and its correlation to mental health diagnoses, while attempting to allow for societal expectation of success (basically, allowing for societies in which the poor fully expect to die poor and have no societal pressure not to do so, the differing levels of expectation being a complicating factor).

btw, class identification can potentially be a help here - 'I'm working class and proud of it' - it's not just inequality but one's relationship to it that is important.

 

[8ball]

Income inequality and its correlation to mental health diagnoses, while attempting to allow for societal expectation of success (basically, allowing for societies in which the poor fully expect to die poor and have no societal pressure not to do so, the differing levels of expectation being a complicating factor).

Controlling for societal expectation of success sounds tricky. Especially across cultures. Japan would be a no-brainer to include due to the relative equality of income and extremely high expectations from children.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Controlling for societal expectation of success sounds tricky.

Yes, hence my late edit. Starting with the crudest measure and working down from that would seem the right way to go. The effect could be so strong that the crudest measure gets results.

 

[redsquirrel]

Is that because of relative poverty or absolute poverty, though?

I'm guessing but I would have thought both factors played a role.

 

[8ball]

Yes, hence my late edit. Starting with the crudest measure and working down from that would seem the right way to go. The effect could be so strong that the crudest measure gets results.

Anecdotally, I've heard as many cases of depression being arguably due to children being raised with no expectation or hope of improving their situation as I have of depression being caused by unrealistic expectations of super-stardom. This may not be as simple as a single dimension.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Anecdotally, I've heard as many cases of depression being arguably due to children being raised with no expectation or hope of improving their situation as I have of depression being caused by unrealistic expectations of super-stardom. This may not be as simple as a single dimension.

I won't be looking at depression, but at diagnoses of 'schizophrenia/bipolar'. And yes, the cultural nature of these diagnoses is a problem - the Japanese have wiped schizophrenia from their diagnosis book, for instance. IMO the new Japanese way of looking at it, 'integration disorder', is more useful, but it's also a different category that will include different people.

*This is looking trickier by the second.

 

[8ball]

Didn't know about the Japanese re-defining of schizophrenia - will have to look that up.