Iranian President suggests 9/11 foul play and cover up

[editor]

Yes, I am capable of appreciating the case he makes, it is very accessible, and I'm sure many others would also find it so also.

So about this 'molten steel'. You made that up, right?

 

[Jazzz]

Err, I've already linked to a talk he gave over six months after the event were he reiterates his analysis of the collapse and, of course, he's vastly, vastly more qualified than Jones in this area.

Well before Jones wrote his paper, or even the NIST report came out. Things move on. If Robertson want to make any proper criticism of Jones' work he has an arena in which to do it. Yet neither he nor anyone else has done so.

 

[Jazzz]

So about this 'molten steel'. You made that up, right?

No, if you were reading the evidence, you would have seen that others specified molten steel in the evidence, and it is my opinion that molten steel was indeed (largely) the molten metal. FFS, read people's posts.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Well before Jones wrote his paper, or even the NIST report came out. Things move on. If Robertson want to make any proper criticism of Jones' work he has an arena in which to do it. Yet neither he nor anyone else has done so.

Is the suggestion that the scientific community agrees with Jones' work on this topic, Jazzz?

 

[editor]

... and it is my opinion that molten steel was indeed (largely) the molten metal.

And your opinion is backed up by what actual research?

Thing was you were quite emphatic earlier about these "pools of molten steel" so I stupidly assumed that you'd researched it and would be able to produce scientific data to support that assertion.

I should have known better, really.

 

[Jazzz]

Yes, you post stupidly and should indeed 'know better', though maybe not in the way you assume.

What did you make of the observations of molten steel from three independent sources I quoted: Greg Fuchek, Sarah Atlas, and Mark Loizeaux?

Nothing, because you didn't even read them?

 

[editor]

If Robertson want to make any proper criticism of Jones' work he has an arena in which to do it. Yet neither he nor anyone else has done so.

I'd imagine that's something to do with the fact that he's got far more important things to do than bother with the minority-interest wafflings of a maverick minnow like Jones.

Still, this notion that the absence of a denial by Robertson - who probably doesn't even know of, least of all care, about Jones' theory - somehow adds weight to the 'invisible thermite' yarn is an entertaining, if desperate, new leap of logic.

So, explain again how they manage to install all these explosives please?

 

[Jazzz]

Is the suggestion that the scientific community agrees with Jones' work on this topic, Jazzz?

The suggestion is that they are finding no contest with it, and it is finding support.

I do not consider appeals to majority belief much of an argument, nor, unlike others on this forum, do I presume to know unstated opinions.

 

[Jazzz]

I'd imagine that's something to do with the fact that he's got far more important things to do than bother with the minority-interest wafflings of a maverick minnow like Jones.

Still, this notion that the absence of a denial by Robertson - who probably doesn't even know of, least of all care, about Jones' theory - somehow adds weight to the 'invisible thermite' yarn is an entertaining, if desperate, new leap of logic.

So, explain again how they manage to install all these explosives please?

Imagine what you like. I am not going over previous posts for you. In fact I am extremely weary of your incessant badgering

 

[editor]

What did you make of the observations of molten steel from three independent sources I quoted: Greg Fuchek, Sarah Atlas, and Mark Loizeaux?

That'll be the red stufff that could be anythng because it hasn't actually been tested type of molten steel, yes?

Oh, and Mark Loizeaux didn't even see the (ahem) 'molten steel' himself:

Mark Loizeaux: I didn't personally see molten steel at the World Trade Center site.
http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_molten_steel.html

And what about Sarah Atlas's testimony? Oh dear - it looks like she never actually said the phrase either - it came from an article written by a journo:

At that time, I spoke with a number of people besides Atlas about their experience, so I'm not sure where the detail about molten steel came from. It could have even come from a secondary source. I would say that it is not a detail I made up--I don't do that--but I can't recall from whom I heard it. Given that the possible sources for the detail were veterinarians, psychologists, dog handlers or others--and not engineers--I don't think their eyewitness accounts really qualify as expert testimony.
http://www.911myths.com/html/sarah_atlas.html

What's Sarah's metallurgical qualifications, btw?
You have checked, right?

 

[editor]

Imagine what you like. I am not going over previous posts for you. In fact I am extremely weary of your incessant badgering

Have you written to Leslie Robertson or are you happy to run with the opinion of a far less qualified scientist?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

The suggestion is that they are finding no contest with it, and it is finding support.

Excellent. I in response think this is utter nonsense: that the paper is not considered to have any standing at all within science.

I do not consider appeals to majority belief much of an argument

Within science, it is an extremely powerful and important argument.

 

[editor]

And Jazzz's third expert eye witness, Greg Fuchek, turns out to be a vice president of a sales team.

“In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be dripping molten steel,” he said.

I wonder how he knew it was steel and not another metal/material?
Any ideas Jazzz?

 

[kyser_soze]

Are there any photos of this stuff around? I'd like to see them.

 

[zArk]

Are there any photos of this stuff around? I'd like to see them.

if you had bothered to read the Steven Jones article which had been linked to, there are links and photos.

oh and if anyone is bothered

Steven E Jones is in a book coming out;

"9/11 and the American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out" (Northampton, Mass: Olive Branch Press, 2006), edited by David Ray Griffin and Peter Dale Scott

other contributors;

Michel Chossudovsky, Shadia Drury, Richard Falk, James H. Fetzer, Daniele Ganser, David Ray Griffin, John McMurtry, Marcus Raskin, Morgan Reynolds, Peter Dale Scott and Ola Tunander.

 

[kyser_soze]

if you had bothered to read the Steven Jones article which had been linked to, there are links and photos.

Well all there is in that report is a wmv file of a firedude saying it's red hot - no actual pictures of the 'molten metal' at all.

One thing that I do notice in the Jones' report is that there is no consideration whatsoever given to what became of all the stuff inside the towers - the computers, a/c ducting, cabling, flooring, personal effects etc that would also have cuaght fire and melted, only an examination of the external structure. What do you think happened to all that?

 

[zArk]

Well all there is in that report is a wmv file of a firedude saying it's red hot - no actual pictures of the 'molten metal' at all.

One thing that I do notice in the Jones' report is that there is no consideration whatsoever given to what became of all the stuff inside the towers - the computers, a/c ducting, cabling, flooring, personal effects etc that would also have cuaght fire and melted, only an examination of the external structure. What do you think happened to all that?

oh, i guess it turned into a molten sludge and burned for weeks on end at temperatures ranging from 600 - 1500 centigrade and sometimes higher.

 

[Jazzz]

Oh, and Jazz - I've had weekly evacuation practice in every office I've worked in since 1995 so holding fire drills hardly counts as bizarre behaviour (indeed, in a skyscraper like the WTC such drills are even more important because the fire risk is far greater)

exactly, that's why no-one would bat an eyelid.

 

[kyser_soze]

exactly, that's why no-one would bat an eyelid.

And that prooves what? ALL office buildings have to do fire evac drills...prooves nothing mate.

You still haven't come back to any of the points raised about how diffucult it would have been to plant the explosives, nor have you answered a question I put to you and Bigfish about 8 9/11 threads ago about identifying the floors where the explosions took place and whether they were occupied office space pre-attack, and if so how would you go about setting demolition charges in such a space?

 

[Jazzz]

editor, my opinion is that molten steel was present but as you prefer, let's say molten metal.

Thermite does not explode. It burns. As such any explosions are utterly unrelated to it. Please, bring some more spurious information.

Have you witnessed it?

I have uncovered this thermite demonstration courtesy of 'brainiac'. It seems to go off with a bang to me - and that's just a small quantity. Moreover it will set other explosions off, as the demonstration shows. Doesn't seem hard to set off either. What do you say BTL?


Now let's watch the molten metal dripping from the tower again.

And let's watch this video of the clean up operation six weeks later.

There is no explanation for this that I am aware of save thermite. If anyone has any I would like to hear it.

 

[Jazzz]

Well all there is in that report is a wmv file of a firedude saying it's red hot - no actual pictures of the 'molten metal' at all.

Yes there are, have another look, also watch the videos I just linked to, come back if you still can't find it.

 

[zArk]

Yes there are, have another look, also watch the videos I just linked to, come back if you still can't find it.

Jazz, will you stop linking to pictures that blatantly show molten metal dripping off a steel beam. Its not clever

 

[kyser_soze]

Ummm....have you ever seen a backdoor firework Jazz? That was almost exactly the same effect as something like a Traffic Light firework - it certainly wasn't an explosion.

Here's an explosion of a deoderant cannister being heated on a fire - can you see the difference in the reaction?

Incidentally, as BTL pointed out, setting thermite off with a fuse is easy - timing thermite charges to go off remotely is another matter altogether.

 

[zArk]

Yes there are, have another look, also watch the videos I just linked to, come back if you still can't find it.

yeah Jazz, thats only one picture. why didnt anyone else take a picture of it?
can you produce more?

 

[kyser_soze]

OK, more on the molten metal falling...why is it isolated to one point on one tower? And can you link directly to a still picture of this molten metal rather than the whole report please?

Look, nothing would make me happier than someone prooving that this was a set up job, but thus far there are too many questions about incidental detail - not molten metal or any of that stuff because quite frankly it's all conjecture - just simple admin about the floors the explosions supposedly took place on and whether they were occupied prior to 9/11 so that even conceivably someone could have got in and set the floors up with the explosives...

OK, I see the pictures...the oine with the digger claw, am I right? Wow - there are a lot of conclusions being drawn here from a fairly confused and chaotic picture aren't there?

 

[kyser_soze]

Seriously - find me something that confirms that the floors that 'blew up' were unoccupied prior to 9/11 and you get some credibility from me, and I don't think that's an unreasonable request.

 

[editor]

Steven E Jones is in a book coming out;

Well there's a surprise!

Cash from chaos!

 

[Jazzz]

one photo
another photo
another photo
another


kyser, that shot of molten metal dripping from the tower, in just one place, is completely unexplained by the official theory.

I can speculate as to why it isn't all around. But it would seem to me that the steel here is broken (by the plane impact, one would assume), and just happens to be hanging out. They would have used quantities of thermite to just weaken all the steel sufficiently (nearly melting). But because of the the break here, the shorter section has to melt, and because it's protruding sufficiently the metal drips out. It wasn't meant to show.

 

[Jazzz]

yeah Jazz, thats only one picture. why didnt anyone else take a picture of it?
can you produce more?

NIST can, they are withholding some 14,000

 

[kyser_soze]

Alternatively it could just be bits an pieces of office related crap flying out the window, no?

And please - occupancy on the floors where the explosives were...surely someone in the 9/11 Truth movement has actually bothered checking this?

Anyroad, I have to go home since I finished work 30 mins ago...god I'm a sad bastard sometimes...