Immigration .. part of neo liberalism/Thatcherism??

[sihhi]

What's great about the IWCA types is that rather than do the lefty proclamations of "jobs for all!" or whatever they concentrate on what can practically be done from where we are now. Saying local control for immigration is as pie-in-the-sky as saying workers' control of industry. From where we are *right now*, all I think we can try to do is re-build a multi-racial/ethnic workers' movement (including tenants' etc.). Stuff in the future about localised self-government is stuff way in the future.

OK to clarify the post more:

I used the word "Often socialists argue" because it was not something I necessarily did.
Arguments about immigration are not the first thing I say to someone-
I don't put "Local Control For Immigration" on posters, hand out leaflets or lead demos with "What do want? -Local control for immigration"

Rebuilding "*right now*" the multiracial workers movement won't ultimately be possible without addressing both legal and illegal immigration.

You mentioned IWCA.
Even the IWCA Programme -- http://www.iwca.info/manifest/policy.htm
is not entirely based on "right-now"
A brief scan of its "policy objectives" will show this:

The return to progressive taxation at a local level, with the wealthiest and large businesses, who profit through being in the community, being taxed accordingly
Council Tax to be abolished and replaced with an income rather than property- based form of local taxation
The setting of local tax rates to be decided by local councils
The reduction of ward sizes to make councillors more accessible and accountable to their constituents
The introduction of proportional representation for all national, regional and local elections

http://www.iwca.info/manifest/policy.htm

A bi-party FPTP seat-to-member parliament democracy transforming itself into meaningful across-the-board PR.... !?! etc

Education:

An end to state funding of religious schools of any denomination*
Majority-elected parent representation on school governing bodies
*This policy does not apply to Scotland at this time

Governments of all colours that have funded religious schools of lots of denominations... not funding them?... ?!

Not "right now" but I don't criticise it because these are IMO powerful ideas that make you stop and think and are about getting power away from the top... even more so if it's all in context of action in the ward or workplace in a sensible manner.

The "multiracial workers'/tenants' movement" especially for unskilled sectors can IMHO only be built when ideas about immigration, border and settlement policies and actions, legalisation of illegal immigrants are adressed aswell as
race attacks.

In final analysis I'd say I've found employing arguments about governments are afraid of local control useful in talking with people who've held a "Too many immigrants now- Human rights in this country stops us from sending them back" line.

Immigration as an issue will come up before this "multiracial workers'/tenants' movement" emerges. If it hasn't come up then these movements will be thin and liable to crumble just like apparently rock-solid tough as nails ones have done in the past IMHO.

 

[belboid]

Well, you only have to look at the results of ethnic conflicts in certain parts of Africa and Asia to see the difference. That people in the UK are not being slaughtered in their own homes by racially motivated armed militias, as they were in Rwanda or Liberia, say, or were in East Timor, seems pretty obvious to me.

I have quite a lot of personal experience of the ex-USSR and other parts of eastern Europe, and I'd say that, for a variety of reasons, non-whites have a far easier time in the UK than in any of those countries.

fair enough. I am not sure how much it is the case that racism is much worse in the UK than in ohter parts of western europe (which is where I assumed Epicurus to be on about, maybe completely incorrectly), but about the 'world at large' it is indeed a fair point.

Sihhi -your post is entirely assertion not argument, there is no reason there why any of your assertions might be true, except in such a vagu way as to be meaningless. There is no need to come to a total agreement about the nature of immigration and its positives/negatives in order to forge a united multi-racial workers movement - in fact I would argue that it is more likely to be the oher way round - we sort out argumewnts about matters such as immigration by forging such a movement, in action.

 

[sihhi]

Just on page 2 of this now, but a some people have talked about the need to organise together with immigrants at work (something I totally agree with). Some have said this is impossible - which is nonsense - and there are loads of examples from way back (the IWW in the US, Italy in the 60s + 70s) but here's one of a recent strike in London involving British and immigrant workers together:
www.libcom.org/history/articles/dahl-jenson-strike-1999

Since when has anyone said it's impossible?

And I'd argue it becomes MORE likely in an atmosphere where people can openly discuss issues associated with the overall effects of certain types of immigration (controlled as they are by capitalists and state) without being accused of playing into the hands of Conservatives or BNP?

What is also difficult (and again not impossible Re1996 JJ's Strike etc etc) is action in entirely immigrants +plenty-with-false-papers-workforce with immigrant boss and immigrant supervisors at head.

...and also that I'm concerned at how immigration can be used against the native working class here, but don't think there should be different rights for non-native workers.

No one has to my knowledge argued for different rights for non-native workers AT ALL on this thread.
I've argued EXPLICITLY for legalisation and full workers' rights for illegal immigrants and work permit immigrants.

 

[sihhi]

There is no need to come to a total agreement about the nature of immigration and its positives/negatives in order to forge a united multi-racial workers movement - in fact I would argue that it is more likely to be the oher way round - we sort out argumewnts about matters such as immigration by forging such a movement, in action.

I don't think there should be

total agreement

- I doubt if I agree "totally" with durruti02 or rnb. Action in attempting to forge these workers' and tenants' movements- will only come about by convincing people and immigration-related issues will come up in certain sectors more than other I entirely agree-- sooner rather later. In some sectors in some areas I'd imagine it probably wouldn't be an issue at all ever.

I dunno I guess I give up- perhaps I have been corrupted by the anti-immigrant arguments of so many close to me, people who are current passport holders but were once immigrants.

 

[sihhi]

central Asian workers are treated abysmally in Russia.

Actual Chinese immigrant workers in the Russian Far East region about 3 million of them according to 2002 census-- compared to 7 million Russians iirc
and Chinese seasonal migrants have been used as a tool by Russian bosses against the lax work habits of Russian workers.

 

[LLETSA]

fair enough. I am not sure how much it is the case that racism is much worse in the UK than in ohter parts of western europe (which is where I assumed Epicurus to be on about, maybe completely incorrectly), but about the 'world at large' it is indeed a fair point.

As more and more of eastern Europe and parts of the former USSR come into the orbit of the EU, the term western Europe is an expanding one (in a political sense.) The vast majority of people I have met from those countries have had, at best, what could be called a negative attitude towards non-white people. Not all of them are virulently racist by any means, but I find them to be amazed by the easy going manner many white and non-white British people have with each other. One Russian woman I know, upon learning that I once was in a relationship with an Afro-Carribbean woman, said something along the lines of 'I don't consider negroes to be just another race, I regard them as a different species.' She is a highly educated person from what used to be known, a little inaccurately, as the liberal intelligentsia of the Soviet Union (not thet this is any guarantee of anti-racism, I do understand, but it is often the case nowadays that racism is associated mostly with the ignorance of 'the uneducated.') Meanwhile, a colleague of my wife who left West Germany to come and live here in the 1980s claims that, although she hears racism expressed towards non-whites, compared to what she knew in Germany, the racism of the white British is so mild as to be non-existent.

All anecdotal, I know, but I think there is a tendancy for the liberal left in this country to paint a highly inaccurate picture of a racist hell hole. When it is mostly in working class areas that not only are most mixed relationships to be found, but also an appreciation of the fact, formed from experience, that prejudice and bigotry can come from all directions, it is, then, little wonder that the white working class - and the working class as a whole, refuses to take the left seriously.

 

[Ryazan]

And are known as 'chorniye' ('the blacks'). As are those from the Caucasus.

My girlfriend has said of them being called "Churka", a derogoratory term apparently, but not one she uses. In Moscow, and the other central Russian regions I have visited they are often working as street sweepers, public toilet attendants, in street kiosks etc. The people I am referring to are from the former Soviet republics, or from the central Asian parts of Russia itself, but with ethnicities from places like Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kazahkstan etc.

 

[Ryazan]

.....I think there is a tendancy for the liberal left in this country to paint a highly inaccurate picture of a racist hell hole. When it is mostly in working class areas that not only are most mixed relationships to be found, but also an appreciation of the fact, formed from experience, that prejudice and bigotry can come from all directions, it is, then, little wonder that the white working class - and the working class as a whole, refuses to take the left seriously.

I agree, and from personal experience I have met some prejudiced attitudes from middle class people about what I am supposed to think in regards to immigrants etc. If only they knew as to the facts of my personal life.

 

[Epicurus]

Aside from the obvous fact that you don't have to have ever even left the UK to be able to appreciate this rather obvious fact, try asking in a less supercilious manner and you might get a more extended answer.

I do acknowledge, however, that as 'a non-white non- European' you automatically have the right to take the moral high ground.

It was just a simple question and I think you have read to much into it, for someone to form a view about an issue like this their experience is rather important, don’t you think?

I have no control how you interpret my words but they were not meant to be supercilious, if you have travelled a lot I think your opinion on this issue would be more valid than someone who hasn’t travelled.

With regard to me being non white non European that has nothing to do with the morel high ground but is relevant as I have suffered racism while in the UK, that’s all.

Don’t be so defensive, don’t you think the questions were relevant?

I just saw this:

Well, you only have to look at the results of ethnic conflicts in certain parts of Africa and Asia to see the difference. That people in the UK are not being slaughtered in their own homes by racially motivated armed militias, as they were in Rwanda or Liberia, say, or were in East Timor, seems pretty obvious to me.

I have quite a lot of personal experience of the ex-USSR and other parts of eastern Europe, and I'd say that, for a variety of reasons, non-whites have a far easier time in the UK than in any of those countries.

Having read this I think you can forget answering my point.

If that is your argument I really can’t be bothered to debate it with you

 

[cockneyrebel]

From my experience there seems to be quite a high level of racism among Eastern Europeans that I have come across in the UK. Black/Asian friends/family also say the same thing. Indeed you only have to look at the plight of the Roma in places like the Czech Republic/Slovakia and you can see how bad the racism is. Why is racism worse in Eastern Europe/ex-USSR?

Having said that I think there is no need to state the obvious in saying that there is still a massive amount of racism in the UK. I thought the recent research showing how you were far less likely to get a job interview if you had a "black or Asian name" was a good example. The police are an on-going example.

In terms of racism and class, I'd say that the majority of people in all classes still have low-level racist views. I haven't known any upper class people but I would imagine that racism is worse there than any other class. I think middle class people are just as/more racist than working class people, it's just that they tend to be a more subtle about it because "it's not the done thing". That's my experience anyway.

Again in my experience though, the level of real mixing between different communities is very minimal. The only time this seems to be broken down is with relationships, and even then I've met quite a few racists who are in mixed race relationships, it's in no way a guarantee of people not being racist (the old they're all right, but the rest of them argument). My school must have been about 50/50 white/black but the actual amount of mixing outside school was minimal. And also if you look at social groups, even in mixed areas, a lot of the time they aren't very mixed IME. I think Gary Younge made the point about not many white people having non-white friends, but I think that is the case across the board in all communities.

 

[tbaldwin]

1. No immigration was OK when it was britsh people going there, but now your saying its wrong. Hypocracy IMHO.
.
Yes, “It means Doctors Teachers and Engineers etc moving to richer countries as ac heap option to those countries training their own.”, but the answer is not just ban and fuck’em to rot. They will just move illegally. The answer is as I describe above imho. (did you read the SW link?)

I Have i ever said that British migration or the empire was OK?
So why assume i think it was?
This doesnt show me to be a hypocrite at all. It just shows you are trying to put words in my mouth.

2 So we should welcome foreign doctors to the NHS should we? To stop them travelling illegally or as a cheaper option to the UK training its own doctors and nurses?
Making it easier for skilled workers to migrate to the west??????
It is such an abysmal arguement for any Socialist to make.

 

[LLETSA]

From my experience there seems to be quite a high level of racism among Eastern Europeans that I have come across in the UK. Black/Asian friends/family also say the same thing. Indeed you only have to look at the plight of the Roma in places like the Czech Republic/Slovakia and you can see how bad the racism is. Why is racism worse in Eastern Europe/ex-USSR?

During the nineties I had, on numerous occasions, east European friends visit me, with a view to maybe finding work here (usually a forlorn hope.) Some of them found it hard to accept that they could see non-white people working when it was so difficult for them to do likewise. (This was before the current wave of east European immigrants and temporary workers, and before any east European countries had joined the EU.) They usually knew the history of the British Empire and they understood that many of the non-whites they saw were born here, but still they seemed to think it was somehow not right.

One reason for this was the tiny numbers of non-whites to be found in those societies, at least until recently; people are just not that used to seeing a non-white person, let alone getting to know them as individuals. In the more multiracial societies like Russia, people seem to distinguish between 'foreign' non-whites from outside, and those who come from within the borders of the ex-USSR. The latter are usually looked upon as being okay, although since the end of the USSR racism against them has taken off in a big way. The former, however, seem to bear the brunt of the racism in Russia.

 

[LLETSA]

See if I care!

I just saw this:

Having read this I think you can forget answering my point.

If that is your argument I really can’t be bothered to debate it with you

Well don't then. Whether you do or not doesn't alter the fact that, compared to many, many other societies, racism in Britain is not all that strong.

That is not to say that you have not experienced racism here.

 

[blamblam]

OK to clarify the post more:

I used the word "Often socialists argue" because it was not something I necessarily did.
Arguments about immigration are not the first thing I say to someone-
I don't put "Local Control For Immigration" on posters, hand out leaflets or lead demos with "What do want? -Local control for immigration"

Rebuilding "*right now*" the multiracial workers movement won't ultimately be possible without addressing both legal and illegal immigration.

What do you mean?

I think rebuilding a working-class movement is the only way of addressing it. After all as many people have pointed out it's not a racial/ethnic/national issue it's the same as things like internal migration and the labour of women/students/young people.

How do you propose then to "address" is? Cos I don't get what you're saying.

You mentioned IWCA.
Even the IWCA Programme -- http://www.iwca.info/manifest/policy.htm
is not entirely based on "right-now"
A brief scan of its "policy objectives" will show this:

http://www.iwca.info/manifest/policy.htm

Well yeah but that's just typical lefty utopianism balls

BTW someone around page 2 - red faction maybe - said cross-ethnic workers organising was not a realistic prospect right now.


edit - and why doesn't everyone just ignore tbaldwin? He's just a cock.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Well don't then. Whether you do or not doesn't alter the fact that, compared to many, many other societies, racism in Britain is not all that strong.

Maybe so, but I'd be careful how you put it. Racism in the UK is still a massive problem and is very strong in its own right.

 

[Epicurus]

Well don't then. Whether you do or not doesn't alter the fact that, compared to many, many other societies, racism in Britain is not all that strong.

That is not to say that you have not experienced racism here.

You just don’t seem to understand that comparing the developed world with the undeveloped world is not a relevant comparison, how can you equate tribal warfare in Africa with institutionalised racism in the UK.

 

[cockneyrebel]

One reason for this was the tiny numbers of non-whites to be found in those societies, at least until recently; people are just not that used to seeing a non-white person, let alone getting to know them as individuals.

But mixing doesn't help racism in and of itself, it depends on what level. As Gary Younge said many white people in the apartheid south of the USA used to live with their slaves and sleep with black women, didn't make them any less racist.

 

[Epicurus]

Maybe so, but I'd be careful how you put it. Racism in the UK is still a massive problem and is very strong in its own right.

Yer but it is at an expectable level compared to the treble violence in Africa, so that’s OK then (note the irony)

 

[Poi E]

Racism in the UK is still a massive problem and is very strong in its own right.

Yes, reminded of that when an aquaintence of my girlfriend lost an eye when set up by some local lads recently who objected to his Springbok jersey. Oh the irony as they called him racist before bottling his face.

 

[LLETSA]

Maybe so, but I'd be careful how you put it. Racism in the UK is still a massive problem and is very strong in its own right.

Where do I say it isn't a problem?

 

[LLETSA]

But mixing doesn't help racism in and of itself, it depends on what level. As Gary Younge said many white people in the apartheid south of the USA used to live with their slaves and sleep with black women, didn't make them any less racist.

Yes, it does depend on what level: no white Rusians mix with non-white immigrants on the basis of a slave and slave master relationship, and neither do white and non-white British mix on this basis.

What's your point?

 

[LLETSA]

Yer but it is at an expectable level compared to the treble violence in Africa, so that’s OK then (note the irony)

Never said it was okay anywhere. If you want to debate, then argue about what I've said, not what you choose to claim I've said for your own ends.

 

[LLETSA]

You just don’t seem to understand that comparing the developed world with the undeveloped world is not a relevant comparison, how can you equate tribal warfare in Africa with institutionalised racism in the UK.

I never made a simple comparison between the developed and underdeveloped world; if you read what I wrote you'll see that I talked of eastern Europe and Germany too, parts of the developed world where racism appears to be stronger than it is in the UK.

 

[LLETSA]

You just don’t seem to understand that comparing the developed world with the undeveloped world is not a relevant comparison, how can you equate tribal warfare in Africa with institutionalised racism in the UK.

Define institutionalised racism and point towards some answers to it.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Where do I say it isn't a problem?

You didn't, which I why I said I think you should be careful of "how you say things". Saying "compared to many, many other societies, racism in Britain is not all that strong", could well come across as underplaying the huge problems of racism in the UK. If you don't think so, we can agree to disagree.

Yes, it does depend on what level: no white Rusians mix with non-white immigrants on the basis of a slave and slave master relationship, and neither do white and non-white British mix on this basis.

What's your point?

That the fact that there wasn't much mixing of races isn't an explanation of where the racism came from.

 

[Epicurus]

You didn't, which I why I said I think you should be careful of "how you say things". Saying "compared to many, many other societies, racism in Britain is not all that strong", could well come across as underplaying the huge problems of racism in the UK. If you don't think so, we can agree to disagree.

nail & head I think

 

[LLETSA]

You didn't, which I why I said I think you should be careful of "how you say things". Saying "compared to many, many other societies, racism in Britain is not all that strong", could well come across as underplaying the huge problems of racism in the UK. If you don't think so, we can agree to disagree.

If you want to see it as meaning that then you will, especially if you're determined enough. It isn't, however, what I said.

 

[LLETSA]

nail & head I think

Nah, arse and elbow more like.

 

[cockneyrebel]

If you want to see it as meaning that then you will, especially if you're determined enough. It isn't, however, what I said.

As said, I didn't say you did.

 

[LLETSA]

That the fact that there wasn't much mixing of races isn't an explanation of where the racism came from.

Well Russia was an imperialist country just like Britain was. But several generations grew up in the USSR subjected to official propaganda that stressed the equality of all races, and in a society that claimed to be-and did in a very real sense and in many areas-raising the non-Russian peoples of the USSR to a parity with the Russians, both economically and culturally.

I do recognise that there was an echo of Great Russian imperialism in the Soviet experiment, but it really is the case that Marxism-by-numbers will prove inadequate to this complex subject. (As will brief posts on a board like this, for that matter.)