Immigration .. part of neo liberalism/Thatcherism??

[Epicurus]

Thanks for the above but to be honest I can’t understand the figures.

But from what you are saying it appears that there is much less public sector housing now even including H.A stock, is that correct?

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Thanks for the above but to be honest I can’t understand the figures.

But from what you are saying it appears that there is much less public sector housing now even including H.A stock, is that correct?

Housing association isn't public sector, but put the together and it falls from 32% to 19%.

 

[cockneyrebel]

I did it for research of the "You Are Being Lied to" leaflet that Workers Power produced:

http://www.workerspower.com/index.php?asylum_lies

I haven't got all the articles I used but google provides all the info. Like this:

http://society.guardian.co.uk/housingtransfers/comment/0,8146,394547,00.html

Written in 1999 it states that over 1.7m council housing has been sold off to right to buy, and that is now over 2m I believe. Well over a third of all Council Housing. None of this council housing has been replaced.

Taking into account stock transfer to private companies and housing associations council homes number not much more than 2 million now.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Thanks for the above but to be honest I can’t understand the figures.

But from what you are saying it appears that there is much less public sector housing now even including H.A stock, is that correct?

There's much less public-sector social housing (i.e. "council houses") because of factors such as "right to buy".
Back in the 1980s (IIRC 1989) local authorities were forbidden by law from building social housing, even to replace units lost to "right to buy", and all responsibility for social housing development was devolved to housing associations, with grant aid etc administered by the quango "The Housing Corporation". Housing associations barely take up the slack from new entrants into the social housing market, let alone generating any kind of social housing surplus. Their development rate (taking into account about 15years of grant-aid cuts too) is nowhere near enough.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Cheers Louis. Hadn't seen that site before but very similar to the stuff I I looked into.

 

[Epicurus]

I did it for research of the "You Are Being Lied to" leaflet that Workers Power produced:

This is very interesting and very different to what I understood to be the situation with regard to housing.

Can you maybe answer me one more question about the income and purchasing power, my understanding from people I speak to is that working class in general now have more purchasing power then they did 50 years ago, is that true?

 

[durruti02]

there is no question that the social housing stock has been cut drastically ... the sneakiest thing the tories did ..

but still with the number of flats the debate remains the same .. wher do you think the immigrant workers who are doing the agency/low paid jobs are working?? many are in private renting yes but many from my experiance are in social housing

both TJ/Bel and patty are getting the wrong end of the stick here

as i said above there is no attempt here to scape goat immigrants .. i am a shop steward who regularly works with agency labourers ( doing the same work) .. am i racist with these people bollox .. they are equals in work ( though i am getting trade union rates .. significantly mor ethan them) .. yes i speak to them about unions etc etc

the point is here as i said above not that we are trying to make immigration an issue .. no the point is it has become an issue and the left have tried to pretend it isn't .. until the left can be honest it will remain as small and insignificant as it is today


patty said that there has always been immigration .. true .. our ancestors were all immigrants at one point or another

the point is to see, how at each period. immgration/migration is used by capitalism .. in periods of full employment , organised labour usually has little problem with immigration..

but clearly over the last period,
with significant unemployment ( some estimate 10%),
with capitalism saying they are restricting immigration when obviously they are not
and with a clear neo liberal agenda ,
everything points to this wave if immigration being to further that neo liberal agenda

 

[durruti02]

TJ and others have repeated the theory that immgration beneftits us all

firstly if you suspect that capitalism is using immigration then it would not be suprising if stats like this appear .. but lets say the stats are true

maybe as an economy TJ we benefit from immigration .. to be honest that sounds like thatcherism .. do away with the unions and cut red tape and the economy thrives and we all benefit .. well it works to an extent, but that is thatcherism / it is a bourgois arguement

i am though looking at this from an angle that w/c people and all of us need to take control of our lives that only when this happens will we get what we all need in the day to day

your arguement misses this absolutely .. because neo liberalism destroys w/c community .. thru moving jobs so families break up .. thru council house sales .. thru destroying unions ... and thru needing and using immgration to change w/c communities ..

 

[belboid]

as i said above there is no attempt here to scape goat immigrants .. i am a shop steward who regularly works with agency labourers ( doing the same work) .. am i racist with these people bollox .. they are equals in work ( though i am getting trade union rates .. significantly mor ethan them) .. yes i speak to them about unions etc etc

the point is here as i said above not that we are trying to make immigration an issue .. no the point is it has become an issue and the left have tried to pretend it isn't .. until the left can be honest it will remain as small and insignificant as it is today

I've no doubt you are not trying to scapegoat immigrants, however that is the inevitable consequence of an argument that says there are 'too many immigrants' here.

Immigration is of course an issue, but the way to respond is still to argue about how it is the bosses that are cutting jobs, and homes, not immigrants. It is to argue how are interests are the same wherever we were born if we are workers.

No, it might not be an easy argument to win all the time, but that doesnt make it wrong.

 

[reallyoldhippy]

everything points to this wave if immigration being to further that neo liberal agenda

Do you hold the view that the current wave of redeployment is also to further the neo liberal agenda? and that all those flooding from other parts of the UK to the South East in search of employment should fuck off back to where they came from 'cos they're making the housing situation worse in the capital?

 

[durruti02]

I've no doubt you are not trying to scapegoat immigrants, however that is the inevitable consequence of an argument that says there are 'too many immigrants' here.

Immigration is of course an issue, but the way to respond is still to argue about how it is the bosses that are cutting jobs, and homes, not immigrants. It is to argue how are interests are the same wherever we were born if we are workers.

No, it might not be an easy argument to win all the time, but that doesnt make it wrong.

belboid the horse has totally bolted man .. that is the point .. if we can just accept that when we are honest then people might actually for once listen to what we say .. please do not tell me you think people have any respect for the left .. they do not .. that is why this is important

this will not lead to scape goating?? ffs !! people already ASSUME that immigration is a problem and part of what is going on!! jesus my best mate who is black /second generation afro caribean/ w/c says it is obvious ( it is only the left who think there is a problem with saying this!!)

and is there scape goating?? no not in major sense .. what there is is alienation from the left and apathy ..

 

[durruti02]

Do you hold the view that the current wave of redeployment is also to further the neo liberal agenda? and that all those flooding from other parts of the UK to the South East in search of employment should fuck off back to where they came from 'cos they're making the housing situation worse in the capital?

yes absolutely .. working class communites are being fked as much by all the yuppy wankers in their gated tower blocks, with all the local shops being replaced by art galleries and (half) decent pubs becoming hideously boring gastro pubs etc etc .. who said immigration is about race??

look i want w/c people to have some say over what goes on .. is that wrong?? and that applies as much to communites getting shafted wherver they are in the country OR the world

at the moment the capitalists are doing ALL the planning for us .. why shouldn't we have a say????

 

[belboid]

what about the second half of ROH's q? Arent there too many northerners in London? (most of us aren't yuppies y'know)

I honestly cant believe you dont think blaming immigrants for (some of) the economic problems of the country wont lead to scapegoating, its just common sense!

 

[durruti02]

what about the second half of ROH's q? Arent there too many northerners in London? (most of us aren't yuppies y'know)

I honestly cant believe you dont think blaming immigrants for (some of) the economic problems of the country wont lead to scapegoating, its just common sense!

bb .. most w/c people already belive the immigrants are problem .. where are the attacks?? you assume people are worse then they are .. like i said it is ONLY the left who can not speak of these things

and people will not listen to you , about anything at all about capitalism when they can see what has gone on , and you are denying it, .. please can you not see that??

sorry but most white immigration into london is yuppy!! most of the jobs 'british' immigrants to london used to do are done by , where i am eastern europeans ..

but please concentrate on what marx said .. the point is to change things .. and how we get to that point .. not by being dishonest ..

anyway got to go .. washroom again!!

 

[belboid]

bb .. most w/c people already belive the immigrants are problem .. where are the attacks?? you assume people are worse then they are .. like i said it is ONLY the left who can not speak of these things

people ARE attacked every day.

and people will not listen to you , about anything at all about capitalism when they can see what has gone on , and you are denying it, .. please can you not see that??

this goes almost completely against my experience

sorry but most white immigration into london is yuppy!! most of the jobs 'british' immigrants to london used to do are done by , where i am eastern europeans ..

really? I'd be interested to see some evidence for that (tho I do realise it would be hard to compile, 'yuppy' not being your normal socio-economic descriptor, I daresay its not measured)

but please concentrate on what marx said .. the point is to change things .. and how we get to that point .. not by being dishonest ..

anyway got to go .. washroom again!!

No, thats why I will honestly say its not immigrants who are the problem, its the system.

 

[Epicurus]

I’d be interested to know the numbers of jobs lost from the UK by companies moving to other places with lower overheads and wage cost after all almost all the call centre jobs seem to have gone or be going and that was the fastest growing sector of the UK when I came here 6 years ago.

Manufacturing was well on the downturn 6 years ago and I guess have just kept falling.

I’m not really sure still how immigrants are impacting on the working class of the UK

 

[blamblam]

Just on page 2 of this now, but a some people have talked about the need to organise together with immigrants at work (something I totally agree with). Some have said this is impossible - which is nonsense - and there are loads of examples from way back (the IWW in the US, Italy in the 60s + 70s) but here's one of a recent strike in London involving British and immigrant workers together:
www.libcom.org/history/articles/dahl-jenson-strike-1999

 

[LLETSA]

people ARE attacked every day.

Yes but all kinds of people are attacked every day. Whenever a non-white person is attacked by a white, the automatic reaction is to assume a racial motive, which may or may not be the case. It is the other side of the coin that suggests that attacks by non-whites on whites cannot be racially motivated, when clearly they can.

I agree with durrutti02 when he says that, when compared to many other countries, racism in the UK isn't all that strong. There are, however, all too many who are prepared to exaggerate it. It is one reason for the alienation from the left of the working class, because the knee-jerk reaction is always to imply that it is the white working class which has the biggest problem with racism when the reality is that it is among the working class where there is the most tolerance.

 

[Epicurus]

I agree with durrutti02 when he says that, when compared to many other countries, racism in the UK isn't all that strong.

This is a very interesting observation, do you mind me asking how many other countries you have lived in or visited for an extended period?

As someone who has lived in many countries and as a non white non European I am very interested in your view.

 

[blamblam]

On page 3, wanted to say I totally agree with this:

Capitalism drives wages down, and if we are strong enough to change immigraton policy, we are strong wenough to change many more aspects of economic policy, which would surely (unless you just have some innate hatred of 'foreigners') take priority.

...and also that I'm concerned at how immigration can be used against the native working class here, but don't think there should be different rights for non-native workers.

I'd imagine all the people arguing against belboid/CR whoever - like LLETSA, Durruti, Louis M, sihhi would say likewise, no? And agree the best solution is to organise together with them, no? This is just a debate.

Right sorry on with the rest of it...

 

[exosculate]

Whilst it is true that social housing provision has fallen sharply, waiting lists have also increased for the reason I stated earlier in specific areas.

Its a reality that people are in denial of.

 

[blamblam]

Sihhi:

Socialists often argue for things that are not in the interest of capital and are just not going to happen without a shift in power dynamics- like a genuine citizen's income, nationalisation of land, entirely free public transport, life sentences for bosses who ignore H&S when it leads to deaths, prison reform or criminal justice system reform.

This is true, but that they do that is bollocks! It's based on the idea that their party will win state power, and then introduce all these great reforms which will somehow be immune frmo the laws of international capital (capital flight etc.)

What's great about the IWCA types is that rather than do the lefty proclamations of "jobs for all!" or whatever they concentrate on what can practically be done from where we are now. Saying local control for immigration is as pie-in-the-sky as saying workers' control of industry. From where we are *right now*, all I think we can try to do is re-build a multi-racial/ethnic workers' movement (including tenants' etc.). Stuff in the future about localised self-government is stuff way in the future.

IMVHO

 

[exosculate]

Sihhi:

This is true, but that they do that is bollocks! It's based on the idea that their party will win state power, and then introduce all these great reforms which will somehow be immune frmo the laws of international capital (capital flight etc.)

What's great about the IWCA types is that rather than do the lefty proclamations of "jobs for all!" or whatever they concentrate on what can practically be done from where we are now. Saying local control for immigration is as pie-in-the-sky as saying workers' control of industry. From where we are *right now*, all I think we can try to do is re-build a multi-racial/ethnic workers' movement (including tenants' etc.). Stuff in the future about localised self-government is stuff way in the future.

IMVHO

Agree with that.

p.s - Are you still into a properly formatted 'Heat' thing? If so I will get on it soon.

 

[blamblam]

Agree with that.

p.s - Are you still into a properly formatted 'Heat' thing? If so I will get on it soon.

Oh yeah definately. It'd be great if we could find some immigrant scabs for it too! [/derail]

 

[exosculate]

Oh yeah definately. It'd be great if we could find some immigrant scabs for it too! [/derail]

Later this week.

Well I wouldn't mind if they deported Whiley.

 

[LLETSA]

This is a very interesting observation, do you mind me asking how many other countries you have lived in or visited for an extended period?

As someone who has lived in many countries and as a non white non European I am very interested in your view.

Aside from the obvous fact that you don't have to have ever even left the UK to be able to appreciate this rather obvious fact, try asking in a less supercilious manner and you might get a more extended answer.

I do acknowledge, however, that as 'a non-white non- European' you automatically have the right to take the moral high ground.

 

[belboid]

in what way is it 'obvious'?

I propbably agree with you in fact, but to say it is 'obvious' is tosh.

 

[LLETSA]

in what way is it 'obvious'?

I propbably agree with you in fact, but to say it is 'obvious' is tosh.

Well, you only have to look at the results of ethnic conflicts in certain parts of Africa and Asia to see the difference. That people in the UK are not being slaughtered in their own homes by racially motivated armed militias, as they were in Rwanda or Liberia, say, or were in East Timor, seems pretty obvious to me.

I have quite a lot of personal experience of the ex-USSR and other parts of eastern Europe, and I'd say that, for a variety of reasons, non-whites have a far easier time in the UK than in any of those countries.

 

[Ryazan]

central Asian workers are treated abysmally in Russia.

 

[LLETSA]

central Asian workers are treated abysmally in Russia.

And are known as 'chorniye' ('the blacks'). As are those from the Caucasus.