Immigration .. part of neo liberalism/Thatcherism??

[ViolentPanda]

Which is why a lot of people are active politically / socially in a small way.
Just becasue we live under capitalism now and have to function within that system does not mean we have to accept its indefinate omnipotent existence.

Hear hear. I don't personally believe in "permanent revolution" in politics, but I do believe in a kind of "permanent evolution" (if that isn't a tautology) from one political state or phase to the next, and it appears to me that the last 25-30 years have been a regression rather than a progression.

 

[Streathamite]

I believe in the absence of a broom, we have to do what we can in the here and now.

so make the broom through collective working-class organisation....

 

[durruti02]

Up to a point. But they're also the same media outlets which are always shrieking the loudest about "bogus" asylum seekers spongeing us out of house and home. They might well be in favour of migration for a favoured few that can afford it, but god forbid any proles should pass through customs.

pigeon mate this is the proof of the pudding .. they are lying hypocritical scum!! the middle classes depend on low waged often immigrant labour .. what self respecting builder or whatever is not nowadays USING a pole or two!!! AND yet go on about asylum seekers .. there is NO contradiction .. they are liars .. it is the nature of the beast!

 

[durruti02]

Yep, I want to see a totally different "ball game". I'm not expecting it to happen through Westminster.


The division of the working class is indeed central to this discussion.
The boss class use immigrants as scapregoats to try and divide the working class. Sorry, that is a fairly basic concept.

the w/c IS divided .. and a majority of w/c people who EXPECTED a lifestyle like their parents ( who fought and died and struck and organised and built this country etc etc white black and whatever ) .. have been shat on over the last 20 years ( and obviously more BUT) AND clearly ..as no one has still given an arguemnet against .. immigration has been used in this process

i am talking about how to rebuild a w/c movement that IN FACT would be able to withstand attacks on refugees BETTER than anything we have now .. we can only do that by rebuilding from the base ..

 

[durruti02]

Maybe your experiences are different.

As an immigrant and with a lot of immigrant friends and aquaintances I can tell you it is harder to get somewhere to live if you aren't indigenous.

so how do so many immigrants have flats here in east london while sons and daughters ..white AND black ..do not???

actually it is to do with family size .. TORY housing laws that have not been changed prioritise larger families ( though they don not neccessaryly get the right amount of rooms) why?? are the tories just SO family friendly??

 

[Isambard]

and migrants are part of the "base" cos they are at the very bottom of the bloody pile.

 

[durruti02]

drove at work past wickes today and saw 20 to 30 eastern europeans waiting for work outside .. what sort of country has this become!!!! and people say they are doing jobs that no one here wants .. rubbish!!! there is just not enough training and PAY ..

the destruction of the closed shop .. and the other attacks on the unions are so clearly part of a same process as large increase in immigration we have seen ..

and before some one somewhere says .."what you have got against poles etc??" .. I have nothing against the individuals .. i just hate how the thatcherites have destroyed what we had .. and used all of us in the process

 

[durruti02]

and migrants are part of the "base" cos they are at the very bottom of the bloody pile.

NO they are not .. some are .. and many are when they arrive .. but they are NOT generally stopped from progressing .. and many immigrants do very well .. check all the Patel millionaires .. in fact the poorest people now are probably some of the afro caribbean communities and poor white communites

 

[rednblack]

NO they are not .. some are .. and many are when they arrive .. but they are NOT generally stopped from progressing .. and many immigrants do very well .. check all the Patel millionaires .. in fact the poorest people now are probably some of the afro caribbean communities and poor white communites

ah but that's because white working class people are lazy

 

[ViolentPanda]

so how do so many immigrants have flats here in east london while sons and daughters ..white AND black ..do not???

Sons and daughters of whatever colou/creed not getting even "on the list" for housing has a lot to do with Maggie and her minions revoking parts of housing law which had favourable "sons and daughters" policies. IIRC many councils gave sons and daughters a good "head start" in terms of "housing points", and when that was removed (to directly further Thatch's "Right to Buy" gerrymandering of the population) many people got fucked over and the whole current housing situation got another building block.

 

[ViolentPanda]

ah but that's because white working class people are lazy

Damn dem dere honky layabouts!

 

[Isambard]

There are SOME miilionaire migrants sure but the reality is different for most.

They do the shittiest jobs for the shittiest pay and live in the shittiest housing.

If your vision for building a strong united working class and changing the word for the better doesn't involve them and sees then as part of the problem rather than as part of the solution then I'd suggest your're on a hiding to nothing.

 

[durruti02]

ah but that's because white working class people are lazy

i know just WHAT IS WRONG with them!!!???

 

[ViolentPanda]

NO they are not

.
An interesting statement, but sadly directly contradicted by your next contribution...

some are .. and many are when they arrive ..

See?

but they are NOT generally stopped from progressing .. and many immigrants do very well ..

After many of them have had to overcome significant institutional and structural barriers to "doing very well" such as language and cultural differences, so no, they're not "stopped", but there are structural and institutional "brakes" to their progress in a world where cultural and social capital can be just as important as knowledge.

check all the Patel millionaires ..

Irrelevant.

in fact the poorest people now are probably some of the afro caribbean communities and poor white communites

Due to the some of the same structural and institutional factors that affect "new arrivals", with some class perception problems added in, IMHO.

 

[durruti02]

A..There are SOME miilionaire migrants sure but the reality is different for most.

They do the shittiest jobs for the shittiest pay and live in the shittiest housing.

B...If your vision for building a strong united working class and changing the word for the better doesn't involve them and sees then as part of the problem rather than as part of the solution then I'd suggest your're on a hiding to nothing.

A ... sorry this is just not true .. and ALL the stats say so .. some immigrant populations have a lot of problems .. Many do not .. and not just the white commonwealth immigrants but also the east africans asians and most indians do well .. and many of the kurds and turks in north london have also rapidly prospered

the trouble with you liberals is you always see RACE before class
( hey i don't do many insults!! )

B .. and of course most immigrants are part of the solution .. though it is hard for many outsiders (yuppies trendies short term immigrants) to be part of solutions when they are just around to make money before they move on .. but unfortunately we are on a hiding to nothing with the vast majority of people in this country who have been TOTALLY disillusionned with the left who prioritise a tiny minority over the EQUALLY deserving majority

 

[durruti02]

.
An interesting statement, but sadly directly contradicted by your next contribution...

See?

After many of them have had to overcome significant institutional and structural barriers to "doing very well" such as language and cultural differences, so no, they're not "stopped", but there are structural and institutional "brakes" to their progress in a world where cultural and social capital can be just as important as knowledge.

Irrelevant.

Due to the some of the same structural and institutional factors that affect "new arrivals", with some class perception problems added in, IMHO.

while i recognise my 'contradiction' .. let me explain ..

almost ALL immigrants are at the bottem when the emigrate .. TO AN EXTENT

.. if I go to malaga or hamburg .. i start at the bottem..

AND WHY NOT????? what is wrong with that??? why should immigrants be prioritised?? me or whoever??? (refugees yes need extra support i do NOT deny ) .. but also it is basic trade union principle that 'last one in first one out' .. and i think that is still very valid ..

the key is how people can progress .. you are wrong that the patel example is irrelevent .. it is very relevant .. people of all cultures can progress in this country .. while i do NOT deny of corurse there is racism etc etc it is fairly mild compared to the rest of the world ..

 

[tbaldwin]

err...no true socialist believes this, they believe it should be abolished. see Isambards last post

No sensible Socialist believes in a magic wand. Thye believe in changing what you can,now.

 

[Streathamite]

yes yes yes, but SURELY ideally you want to see capitalism brought to an end, and replaced with...well, socialism. otherwise, you're a social democrat.

 

[Isambard]

tbaldwin, when you raise your argument above thinking that socialists want a "magic wand" then it might be worth giving your witterings and insults some some of attention. For the record it is NOT "magic", it has a material base,i t's about who controls the means production, distribution and exchange.

Anyway Durrutti: interesting point about transient migrants.

I DON'T put race or nation before class , I've seen enough members of my own immigrant community being exploitative bastards to do that.

I don't think anyone is demanding "extras" for migrants or that they generally be proritised.

The myth that "they come over here and the council buys them a new car" sort of shite.

 

[tbaldwin]

yes yes yes, but SURELY ideally you want to see capitalism brought to an end, and replaced with...well, socialism. otherwise, you're a social democrat.

Yes i do but i'm a gradualist?

 

[tbaldwin]

There are SOME miilionaire migrants sure but the reality is different for most.

They do the shittiest jobs for the shittiest pay and live in the shittiest housing.

If your vision for building a strong united working class and changing the word for the better doesn't involve them and sees then as part of the problem rather than as part of the solution then I'd suggest your're on a hiding to nothing.

The solution does involve them but it does not involve supporting free market migration policies.
Internationalism and giving people more say on a local level are not competing opposites.They are part of the same thing redistibution of power.

 

[Isambard]

Care to name any poster on this thread who is in favour of free market capitalism?

 

[tbaldwin]

Care to name any poster on this thread who is in favour of free market capitalism?

er YOU.

 

[Isambard]

er YOU.

PMSL!

 

[tbaldwin]

Care to name any poster on this thread who is in favour of free market capitalism?

My point is that you support free market in migartion and that is what any extreme capitalist would. They see competition for jobs etc as a good thing but i and other Socialists think that both capital and labour need regulating.

 

[Isambard]

i and other Socialists think that both capital and labour need regulating.

PMSL again, "regulate labour" like with anti-union laws and stuff?
You really see it as a resource like water of electricity that should be turned on and off for the benefit of a functioning capitalist ystem don't you

As the wise Jezza has always pointed out to you socialists think capitalism should be ended, primarily by labout taking control of society for the benefit of humankind.

You are a social democrat.

 

[tbaldwin]

PMSL again, "regulate labour" like with anti-union laws and stuff?
You really see it as a resource like water of electricity that should be turned on and off for the benefit of a functioning capitalist ystem don't you

As the wise Jezza has always pointed out to you socialists think capitalism should be ended, primarily by labout taking control of society for the benefit of humankind.

You are a social democrat.

Anti union laws ? where has that come from?
I'm a Democratic Socialist..

 

[Isambard]

Checked out that description with Tony, is that allowed to be used any more?
Better detain yourself for 90 days.

 

[tbaldwin]

I would but out for the weekend with the Blairs where we will be shooting the disabled and drowning refugees and gays...

 

[durruti02]

Anyway Durrutti: interesting point about transient migrants.

I DON'T put race or nation before class , I've seen enough members of my own immigrant community being exploitative bastards to do that.

I don't think anyone is demanding "extras" for migrants or that they generally be proritised.

The myth that "they come over here and the council buys them a new car" sort of shite.

fair enough .. and clearly immigrants do not get new cars ! however they often get jobs .. yes at lower wages but that is the point .. and people see them working .. and they get flats .. as has been shown a change in housing policy undr thatcher prioritise larger families over small or starting families which favoured immigrants .. other housing policy has favoured well off 'immigrants'