Immigration .. part of neo liberalism/Thatcherism??

[iROBOT]

I did a conference recentley (London Housing Federation) and one speaker commented that the social housing problem started in the late seventies with a shortfall of 14, 000 homes per year, increasing with the Tory sell off of Council Housing in attempt to make us all home owning Tories.

in order to catch up we'd have to build a hugh number of houses also the demographic has changed in some areas there are plenty of three bed places but very few of the high demand housing which constitues 1 or 2 bedroom housing.

This is a very complex issue, putting it down to immigration seems so simplistic.

 

[tbaldwin]

This is a very complex issue, putting it down to immigration seems so simplistic.

It would be simplistic to blame housing shortages solely on migration but it would also be simplistic and dishonest to say it has no effect.

 

[Isambard]

simplistic and dishonest to say it has no effect.

Except that no one has. Just your off in your fantasy world again aren't you.
I've said that the effect, if it exists is small enough to be insignificant.

 

[exosculate]

in order to catch up we'd have to build a hugh number of houses also the demographic has changed in some areas there are plenty of three bed places but very few of the high demand housing which constitues 1 or 2 bedroom housing.

Utter tosh - there are major shortages in all dwelling types (in certain places) - bigger 3/4+ houses are in most demand of all however by a significant margin. Where did you get that from?

 

[exosculate]

Except that no one has. Just your off in your fantasy world again aren't you.
I've said that the effect, if it exists is small enough to be insignificant.

Insignificant?????

This is planet Earth calling come in Isambard

 

[iROBOT]

Utter tosh - there are major shortages in all dwelling types (in certain places) - bigger 3/4+ houses are in most demand of all however by a significant margin. Where did you get that from?

Once you stop being insulting (lol) I'll have a go at finding the relevant conference web site, I dont make things up.

 

[exosculate]

Once you stop being insulting (lol) I'll have a go at finding the relevant conference web site, I dont make things up.

I'm sure you don't - you're just plain wrong!

 

[Isambard]

This is planet Earth calling come in Isambard

Maybe your experiences are different.

As an immigrant and with a lot of immigrant friends and aquaintances I can tell you it is harder to get somewhere to live if you aren't indigenous.

 

[iROBOT]

I'm sure you don't - you're just plain wrong!

Well if you care to look around you I think you'll find that the demographic is radically changing in terms of household numbers. Many a report has stated that in the near future half of all household will be single occupation. Traditional families are on the decline therefore that they'll be less need to for certain types of housing. Also, because (in the south at least) a single person of average wage cannot afford a conventional 3-4 bedroom house. (I've contacted the London Housing Federation and hopefully I’ll furnish you with the relevant links when they return my email).

 

[iROBOT]

It would be simplistic to blame housing shortages solely on migration but it would also be simplistic and dishonest to say it has no effect.

So can you provide me with links to discussions that talk about the Council House sell off's the reluctance of New Labour to release the capital receipts from the Tory sell off?? Or the severe lack of investment in social housing since the late seventies or the million (or so) empty properties across the country. Or the slow gentrification of working class areas making it imposible for working class people to afford to live in their own areas...?

I've not seen any balance....show me some.

 

[tbaldwin]

Except that no one has. Just your off in your fantasy world again aren't you.
I've said that the effect, if it exists is small enough to be insignificant.

I would say that depends where you live.For some people the effect is far from insignificant and to pretend it is not a major factor is dishonest.

 

[tbaldwin]

So can you provide me with links to discussions that talk about the Council House sell off's the reluctance of New Labour to release the capital receipts from the Tory sell off?? Or the severe lack of investment in social housing since the late seventies or the million (or so) empty properties across the country. Or the slow gentrification of working class areas making it imposible for working class people to afford to live in their own areas...?

I've not seen any balance....show me some.

Well this is primarily a discussion about immigration. But different people will have different views on the subjects you raised.
But any workable housing policy needs targets. And i would say that having targets with an open door migration policy is almost impossible.

 

[iROBOT]

Agreed, but discussions such as these tend to skewer the argument which is a chronic lack of under investment for the past thirty years or so.

Isnt this what “the powers” want? Rule and divide and all that.

We have taken the eye off the ball. Housing is a major issue and will increasingly become so; I’d like to concentrate on the majority factors and not side line issues.

 

[tbaldwin]

Agree that Housing is a major issue but it links up to other issues especially economic migration and worldwide inequality.
Those that argue for free market solutions to migration or housing have to explain how it could actually make anything better when it currently leads to so many problems for so many people.

 

[Isambard]

There is currently no "free market" in migration.

 

[tbaldwin]

There is currently no "free market" in migration.

There has always been a free market in migration for some people...
And those who argue that it should be extended need to look at what effect that would have?

 

[Isambard]

IF you are Rupert Murdoch, yes there is a free market.

The majority of migrants aren't though, they are workers.

I don't like the insinuation that there are already too many migrants.

 

[tbaldwin]

I don't like the insinuation that there are already too many migrants.

Well i think that is sad. I think that far too many people are forced or encouraged by economic factors to leave their home countries.
Are you insinuating that is OK?

 

[Isambard]

I don't think inequality in world development is OK. I don't think it is migration away from Africa is the reason that Africa is "poor", it is capitalism.

And I believe in the end of capitalism which would include "no borders".

 

[tbaldwin]

I don't think inequality in world development is OK. I don't think it is migration away from Africa is the reason that Africa is "poor", it is capitalism.

And I believe in the end of capitalism which would include "no borders".

1 I think it is a very important factor. If you continously take away the skilled people devloping countries need most their development is stunted.

It is all very well saying you believe in the end of capitalism. But supporting Capitalist free maket migration policies is hardly the right way to go about it.

 

[Isambard]

But supporting Capitalist free maket migration policies

I don't.

 

[tbaldwin]

I don't.

Sorry Isamabard i thought you had argued for open borders now?

 

[Isambard]

Capitalists are divided on the issue of migration, for and against.
Socialists are divided on the issue of migration, for and against.

It is not a simple capitalist / socialist issue.

I have explained this to you before, many many many many times...............

To accuse me of being a fan of capitalism is a willfull smear and mis-representation, but we should be used to that from you by now I suppose.

 

[tbaldwin]

Sorry Isamabard, I dont think your a fan of capitalism. But i dont agree with your views on migartion which i think could never be consistent with being anti capitalist.
I believe capitalism needs to be regulated.Strident free marketers oppose all regulation including and especially the movement of people.

 

[Isambard]

I believe capitalism needs to be regulated.

IO beleive capitalism needs to be swept into the sea.

 

[Streathamite]

I believe capitalism needs to be regulated..

err...no true socialist believes this, they believe it should be abolished. see Isambards last post

 

[iROBOT]

Agree with Red Jezza and Isambard

Its Capitalism that causes economic migration and it is Capitalism that causes the tensions in society between differing sections of our community (not just ethnic)

Once Capitalism is banished to the past and its principles are put into place then the need for hostility will end as will poverty and inequality.

A dream? Maybe, but one worth having

 

[exosculate]

err...no true socialist believes this, they believe it should be abolished. see Isambards last post

I believe in the absence of a broom, we have to do what we can in the here and now.

 

[Isambard]

we have to do what we can in the here and now.

Which is why a lot of people are active politically / socially in a small way.
Just becasue we live under capitalism now and have to function within that system does not mean we have to accept its indefinate omnipotent existence.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I believe in the absence of a broom, we have to do what we can in the here and now.

But does your "do what we can" mean engaging in some kind of progressive attempt to ameliorate the worst effects of capitalism through tackling it at its' root, or "amelioration by bandaid plaster", which is what it appears to me tbaldwin would prefer (given his "our system isn't so bad" spiel on another thread)?

I don't have any solutions mind. but I don't believe we should stop asking question just because we don't have a solution yet.