Immigration .. part of neo liberalism/Thatcherism??

[Isambard]

Govt figures show there are just 95 polish plumbers in the UK!. Which kind of shows how nobody has any idea of the true figures of legal and non legal migrants.

YOU have the right to work in France, retire to Spain, import as much German beer as you can drink, as many Italian sun dried tomatoes as you can eat and go to visit Crackow as much as you like.

Or would you rather : "Fog in Channel, Continent Cut Off" ?

 

[tbaldwin]

YOU have the right to work in France, retire to Spain, import as much German beer as you can drink, as many Italian sun dried tomatoes as you can eat and go to visit Crackow as much as you like.

Or would you rather : "Fog in Channel, Continent Cut Off" ?

Yeah the free movement of people is always good for those who can afford it...
And that is partly why a left made up of privelleged middle class people are so keen on it.
Imperialism is alive and well.

 

[Isambard]

Yeah the free movement of people is always good for those who can afford it...And that is partly why a left made up of privelleged middle class people are so keen on it. Imperialism is alive and well.

Italian sun-dried tomatoes go for what, 45p (?) at Aldi and Lidl (<- German supermarkets taking the UK by storm)

Privileged? Lucky my parents already owned their house cos they've been living on benefits for near on the last 30 years.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Privileged? Lucky my parents already owned their house cos they've been living on benefits for near on the last 30 years.

Now we just have to sit back and wait for the world's greatest socialist to start spouting his "spongers" rhetoric.

 

[Isambard]

Now we just have to sit back and wait for the world's greatest socialist to start spouting his "spongers" rhetoric.

*LOL* Hiya VP.

My mum's on ICB (or whatever they call it) and has already been twice through the physically and mentally harrowing process of the DSS (imvho) torturing her with "doctors" to try and cut the benefits. Thanks Tone!

 

[Pigeon]

Yeah the free movement of people is always good for those who can afford it...

Immigration control's always fairly lucrative for the lucky few and all, as the pimp trafficker scum put away last week could doubtless tell you.

 

[tbaldwin]

Now we just have to sit back and wait for the world's greatest socialist to start spouting his "spongers" rhetoric.

Did you see my letter in the standard yesterday VP. The bastards cut the bit about Australians and South Africans.
As for "spongers rhetoric" your talking shit again. You would love me to go on all the time about people on the bottom of dependency culture etc. But i dont i have a go at the parasites who make so much money out of it, who pretend they are really good people but dont really give a shit.

My arguements on IB is that loads of people on the benefit could work,not that there all spongers.

 

[tbaldwin]

Immigration control's always fairly lucrative for the lucky few and all, as the pimp trafficker scum put away last week could doubtless tell you.

Yeah and he was just practicing what you preach. Free movement of people at a price........

 

[Pigeon]

Yeah and he was just practicing what you preach. Free movement of people at a price........

I preach that, do I? You'll have examples..?

What you're apparently too dumb to work out is that the strong border controls you advocate make it inevitable that the vulnerable will be exploited, sexually, economically, you name it. And the more draconian the immigration controls, the greater the level of exploitation. Prohibition does not work.

 

[Isambard]

I read in the Grauniad recently that a lot of the women who were apparently freed from sex slavery in a Birmingham brothel the other week are behind bars awaiting deportation.

I can't remember if it was the UN or the EU that had the proposal that migrant women freed from sex slavery should be allowed to settle easier in the country where they are freed. Guess which government is refusing to agree to this.........

Any comment tbaldwin?

 

[tbaldwin]

I read in the Grauniad the other week that a lot of the women who were apparently freed from sex slaver in a Birmingham brothel the other week are behind bars awaiting deportation.

I can't remember if it was the UN or the EU that had the proposal that woemn freed from sex slavery should be allowed to settle easier in the country where they are freed. Guess which government is refusing to agree to this.........

Any comment tbaldwin?

Not much really. Obviously if there was not so much migration it would be easier to catch out people behind this trade.
I dont really see how letting women settle in countries they were sex slaves in, helps much either.

Anybody who thinks this kind of thing would disappear if there were no immigration controls has probably been reading the guardian too long..

 

[tbaldwin]

Prohibition does not work.

Pigeon typically on form confident, self assured and smug.

It really depends on what you mean by "does not work" i think.

 

[Pigeon]

Pigeon typically on form confident, self assured and smug.

If you're challenging me to battle of wits, mate, forget it. I make it a general point of principle not to fight with unarmed opponents.

It really depends on what you mean by "does not work" i think.

No, that's a fair point. "By does not work" I mean "does not stop the thing you claim to be trying to stop". If someone could send me a photoshop package, I'll see if I can sort you out a picture, if that might help...?

 

[Isambard]

Not much really. Obviously if there was not so much migration it would be easier to catch out people behind this trade.
I dont really see how letting women settle in countries they were sex slaves in, helps much either.

JESUS!
WTF are you on?
= "if there weren't so many migrants we could uncover sex slavery easier".

So women freed from the sex slavery get a trip to the local prison and a one way ticket out of heathrow, dumped back where they originally came from and guess what, often ending up in the hands of traffiking pimps AGAIN.

What Pigeon has pointed out several times and what I have said several times, that even WITH the harshest controls on migration (the ones you think are for the "greater good", like shoot to kill at the Berlin Wall?) people will STILL migrate. It is the "illegality" of women caught in sex slavery and the fact that pimps use the threat of the police and immigration people against them, that prevents many women being able to get out.

NO ONE has said that sexual exploitation would disappear if migrants were less hounded. But the hounding of migrants makes the situation for many women worse.

Cut the cheapo lines, I maybe read the Guardian twice a month.

 

[tbaldwin]

If you're challenging me to battle of wits, mate, forget it. I make it a general point of principle not to fight with unarmed opponents.



No, that's a fair point. "By does not work" I mean "does not stop the thing you claim to be trying to stop". If someone could send me a photoshop package, I'll see if I can sort you out a picture, if that might help...?

Well if you mean completely stop.OK.
But have an effect on thats different.
PS thanks for showing me such mercy,you must be a wonderful person..

 

[tbaldwin]

Isamabard i have been to Birmingham and would not want to leave any woman there......

 

[ViolentPanda]

Isamabard i have been to Birmingham and would not want to leave any woman there......

Cheap shot from a cheap shit.

 

[Pigeon]

But have an effect on thats different.

Oh, it has an effect. The effect it has is to turn the fates of would-be migrants into the hands of gangsters, pimps, thugs and generally the shit of the earth. And it also has the effect of ensuring a bedrock of illegal labour with no employment rights, undermining the wages and conditions of everyone else.

PS thanks for showing me such mercy,you must be a wonderful person..

First thing I think I've ever read of yours with which I can wholeheartedly agree.

 

[Pigeon]

Isamabard i have been to Birmingham and would not want to leave any woman there......

..no matter how much I imagine she'd be hoping.

 

[durruti02]

I preach that, do I? You'll have examples..?

What you're apparently too dumb to work out is that the strong border controls you advocate make it inevitable that the vulnerable will be exploited, sexually, economically, you name it. And the more draconian the immigration controls, the greater the level of exploitation. Prohibition does not work.

look the point is how do we change this situation .. all the 'no borders' people on these debates actually have no strategy to actually GET to where you want to be .. it is all very well to bemoan border controls .. and you do have a point that the stricter the control .. the more criminal will be the smugglers .. what you miss is that at the moment there is little or no border control AND we have large scale criminality

BUT BUT BUT again .. do you really disagree that only a mass w/c movement will destroy this situation ..

it is clear and no one on here has shown otherswise that capitalism today in its restructuring phase DEPENDS on a large flow of labour ..legal and illegal ..for cheap labour

so again HOW can we make it better ..

we need top start rebuilding the w/c organisations that have been destroyed as capitalism has restructured .. the trade unions and the tenants groups and other community organsisations .. we cannot do this without confronting how immigration is used ..

it is possibly the lefts biggest mistake ( and liberalisms victory!) that a confused so called internationalism/anti racism meant that the left/Trade unions failed to see what was being down with immigration (i am talking about the period after full employment) .. this failure to allow capitalism to be challenged on housing ( those who supported sons and daughters were shouted down as RACISTS) or on employment (those who said work should be done by local people were dismissed as backward self seeking and again racist) has enabled capitalism to restucture more fundamentally

not only that it has helped to alienate millions of ordinary w/c people from the trade unions and the left .. this is having disasterous consequences ..

we have to start rebuilding somewhere .. and acknowledgement of immigrations function is one ..and the other is actively supportting/enabling communites try to strengthen themselves .. and in this process rebuilding the w/c movement ..

 

[Isambard]

what you miss is that at the moment there is little or no border control AND we have large scale criminality.

UTTER RUBBISH!

I reguarly travel abroad and the controls at Heathrow and Gatwick have become stricter over the years. The onus on immigration status pushed onto the airlines etc etc.

The borders in eastern Europe have become slightly milder since Czech Rep etc joined the EU but there is still full checks. I know from personal experience how tightly Slovakia guards its eastern border with the Ukraine. Even in the supposed "passport free" Schengen zone there are still ID checks just they've been moved from the borders to other locations.

The criminality like that towards the cocklepickers who drowned in Lancashire and the women as slave-prostitutes in Birmingham could only have worked becasue they were "illegals" outside of the system.

 

[Pigeon]

look the point is how do we change this situation .. all the 'no borders' people on these debates actually have no strategy to actually GET to where you want to be .. it is all very well to bemoan border controls .. and you do have a point that the stricter the control .. the more criminal will be the smugglers .. what you miss is that at the moment there is little or no border control AND we have large scale criminality

BUT BUT BUT again .. do you really disagree that only a mass w/c movement will destroy this situation ..

No. Don't disagree whatsoever. But I've not seen any argument for that- just a constant reiteration of "immigration's bad- it takes away the people poorer countries need". Without any argument whatsoever for a mass w/c movement to challenge the conditions that create this situation.

Having said that, it's simply not true to say that there's little or no border control; there's a highly lucrative industry devoted to the policing of precisely such controls. What does exist, IMHO, is a virtual double think at policy level around the issue. So noises will be made about, for example, deporting "failed" asylum seekers and a few token flights might be chartered for a variety of reasons but tno real concerted attempts at mass deportation.

And the result of that is a pool of disenfranchised destitute people with no labour rights- ideal from a capitalist perspective. So any mass w/c movement would need to address that fact from a realistic perspective, working to defend people from those communities as well as the indigenous ones, rather than just bleating that "they come and take our jobs".

it is clear and no one on here has shown otherswise that capitalism today in its restructuring phase DEPENDS on a large flow of labour ..legal and illegal ..for cheap labour

I certainly wouldn't even want to attempt to show otherwise.

so again HOW can we make it better ..

we need top start rebuilding the w/c organisations that have been destroyed as capitalism has restructured .. the trade unions and the tenants groups and other community organsisations .. we cannot do this without confronting how immigration is used ..

So long as the "we" you're referring to includes all the people disadvantaged by the ravages of the "free" market, I couldn't find fault with any of that.

 

[durruti02]

all[/I] the people disadvantaged by the ravages of the "free" market, I couldn't find fault with any of that.

of course it does ..

 

[durruti02]

UTTER RUBBISH!

I reguarly travel abroad and the controls at Heathrow and Gatwick have become stricter over the years. The onus on immigration status pushed onto the airlines etc etc.

The borders in eastern Europe have become slightly milder since Czech Rep etc joined the EU but there is still full checks. I know from personal experience how tightly Slovakia guards its eastern border with the Ukraine. Even in the supposed "passport free" Schengen zone there are still ID checks just they've been moved from the borders to other locations.

The criminality like that towards the cocklepickers who drowned in Lancashire and the women as slave-prostitutes in Birmingham could only have worked becasue they were "illegals" outside of the system.

we are not just talking here about illegal immigration thru smuggling ..only a tiny percent of illegals are smuggled in lorries or the like .. how do so many people get thru .. thru student visas dodgu passports, fake papers , fake families etc etc .. e.g. the poles do not COME in 'illegal' .. their staying is 'illegal '

i do not expect you to answer this but i presume that you like so many have on occasion hood winked the authorities ..

while it is true that the illegality of the chinese cocklers enabled gangsters/masters to control them ( as with sex workers) unfortunately it is also true that these scum would find other ways of control ..

i would not dispute this but the solution is not so argue for no borders .. which without soceity is just a free for all .. but against neo liberalism .. if the govt wanted it could crack down on the rural gangmasters, as the TnG has ineffectavely argued for for many years ( they existed before mass migration!) , the trouble is they do not want to ..

 

[tbaldwin]

UTTER RUBBISH!


The criminality like that towards the cocklepickers who drowned in Lancashire and the women as slave-prostitutes in Birmingham could only have worked becasue they were "illegals" outside of the system.

Er how do you work that out. I think its about people being desperate for a better standard of living and people looking to exploit them.
Do you imagine all that would disapper if we did away with immigration controls ?.

 

[tbaldwin]

No. Don't disagree whatsoever. But I've not seen any argument for that- just a constant reiteration of "immigration's bad- it takes away the people poorer countries need". Without any argument whatsoever for a mass w/c movement to challenge the conditions that create this situation.

.

So where do you see this mass wc movement coming from? Cant see it coming from people like you who hold the views of wc people in such contempt.

 

[Isambard]

The cocklepickers couldn't go to the police or HSE or whoever "Look we're being exploited for £1 an hour and working in VERY dangerous conditions" as the women who were seeming enslvaed in prostitution BECAUSE of the power had over them becasue they were "illegal".

It has been mentioned several times before but it is worth repeating again: Pimps enslvaing women sexually use these women's "illegal" status as a threat against them. ie Don't grass, the police will just deport you anyway.

We can see the effectiveness of this argument when you read in the newspapers that the women freed from apparently sex slavery in a Birmingham brothel are.......to be deported.

 

[exosculate]

I'm still seeing a gap with reality falling through it.

 

[tbaldwin]

The cocklepickers couldn't go to the police or HSE or whoever "Look we're being exploited for £1 an hour and working in VERY dangerous conditions" as the women who were seeming enslvaed in prostitution BECAUSE of the power had over them becasue they were "illegal".

It has been mentioned several times before but it is worth repeating again: Pimps enslvaing women sexually use these women's "illegal" status as a threat against them. ie Don't grass, the police will just deport you anyway.

We can see the effectiveness of this argument when you read in the newspapers that the women freed from apparently sex slavery in a Birmingham brothel are.......to be deported.

The point is that it is world economics that makes these things possible. Immigration rules are hardly the whole problem for these women.
But i do accept that its a bit shit for them individually.

 

[Knotted]

What you're apparently too dumb to work out is that the strong border controls you advocate make it inevitable that the vulnerable will be exploited, sexually, economically, you name it. And the more draconian the immigration controls, the greater the level of exploitation. Prohibition does not work.

But what if working class organisation was strong enough to assert a degree of control over migration? Surely if the working class were in this position they would also be in the position to prohibit employers super exploiting illegal migrants. If there was a bottom up strategy with popular support then I don't think the problems you talk about would arise.

I suppose the big difficult question in this thread is how to regulate immigration. In practice we're not talking about explitly introducing immigration contols by lobying the government.

Effectively we have certain strategies like sons and daughters which might implicitly pressurise the government. I say implicitly because the purpose of these strategies is not to curb immigration although they might have that effect.

I suppose that a strong international trade union movement could insist that workers taking up employment in another country are union members - a sort of closed shop. Obviously that's a long way off.

I'm sure that others will have bigger and better ideas but I think at present we need to know where our priorities are.