Immigration .. part of neo liberalism/Thatcherism??

[tbaldwin]

You keep banging on about "plundering the third world of skilled labours" but there is never a fixed supply of skilled workers. Many people only train to be nurses etc because they can pay for their training and find work in richer countries. It is simply untrue that these people would have trained anyway, or that they would be able to find the same jobs in their own countries. For people to be employed there need to be jobs in the first place - something that you completely ignore in your bogus arguments.

Furthermore, even if it seems to you like there are a *lot* of immigrants, in fact the numbers are very small when compared with the large populations of many developing countries. Other jobs are outsourced to these countries, money is sent back, skills are taken back, connections made and trade increases - all of whoch benefit the developing economies.
.

Ive realy dealt with these points before but you must have missed them.
The reason many people in the phillipines and zimbabwe etc train to be nurses is its a way into the west.
They are obviously the people who have had the most education and the people developing countries need the most.
Your Thatcherite trickle down theory of "at least some of them send money home" does not address the fact that not many people in those countries have relatives abroad sending money home and that it can create further inequality in those countries. But i wouldnt expect an "authoritarian nationalist" to lose any sleep over that.
I have not said that exactly the same Jobs would be available at home that has never been my arguement.

 

[Pigeon]

immigration is part of CAPITALISM ..

Precisely. The migrant worker is the ideal capitalist labour unit. Which is why, in a capitalist economy, it's utterly fucking meaningless to try to argue either "for" or "against" migration. And it's still more fucking meaningless to argue that migration causes inequality, since capitalism=inequality.

 

[Pigeon]

You live in a little world of your own dont you!

I fucking wish.

 

[TeeJay]

so we are getting old .. lets get in a load of immigrants to do all the dirty work TJ!! .... is that honestly the sort of world you want to live in??

Dirty work? You mean maintain the ratio of workers to retirees in the population? I don't see where you are getting the "dirty" bit from.

1. An country with lots of jobs but not enough new/young workers.
2. An country with lots of young people but not enough jobs.

For some reason you are trying to find all sorts of reasons why people from country 2 should not be allowed to go and work in country 1.

Why the fuck is it anyone's business to stop them doing what they want?

The alternative is fuckwitted command-and-control authoritarian nationalism that is a fig leaf for racism and xenophobia - a nasty thing and one that is doomed to failure anyway.

 

[TeeJay]

...it can create further inequality in those countries...

You pathetic no-brained twat!

'Don't send money to poor countries because it creates more inequality there'

'Don't help anyone because unless you help everyone equally you are increasing inequality'

You really are a fucking moron aren't you?

 

[exosculate]

You pathetic no-brained twat!

'Don't send money to poor countries because it creates more inequality there'

'Don't help anyone because unless you help everyone equally you are increasing inequality'

You really are a fucking moron aren't you?

Stop being abusive, yet again.

 

[TeeJay]

...and here's another one.

 

[tbaldwin]

You pathetic no-brained twat!

'Don't send money to poor countries because it creates more inequality there'

'Don't help anyone because unless you help everyone equally you are increasing inequality'

You really are a fucking moron aren't you?

Perhaps.

But your arguement for trickle down economics doesnt sound exactly great to me either teejay.
I dont know if it makes me a moron pointing out that some people sending money home is not an ideal solution.And can make inequality worse in those countries or where you think i said "dont help anyone"
Perhaps you being much more intelligent than me will be able to find a quote?

 

[TeeJay]

A quote of what?

 

[tbaldwin]

A quote of what?

" Dont send money to poor countries"
" Dont help anyone because unless you help everyone etc"

Come on Teejay i am sure you knew very well what i meant..

 

[tbaldwin]

Teejay it is also pathetic of you to advance that pensions arguement.And then go on to criticise others of fuck witted nationalism.
Many of the millions of people unemployed and underemployed in this country are having to compete against migrants. Lower skilled workers in their 50s are being pushed out of the Labour market as it gets more competitive.
What shopuld we say to them "dont worry you will soon be old enough for a pension paid by migrant workers"
Your arguement is so shit i think you could get a job for the Observer....

 

[Isambard]

the millions of people unemployed and underemployed in this country are having to compete against migrants.

So now you ARE saying migrants take "our" jobs?

 

[tbaldwin]

So now you ARE saying migrants take "our" jobs?

Still cant get quite get it can you!!!!!!!!!

I am not balming migrants ( though you would like me too)
But my arguement is that
Economic Migration makes the world a more unequal place. It means taking the skilled workers that developing nations need most.

It also means increasing competition for housing and jobs in the countries they migarte too..


I ahve only made these points about 70 times you probably missed them....

 

[Isambard]

That's a bit like like the church's argument that they don't dislike gays, just what they do in bed.

But let's talk about it in abstract terms if you want:
I'd argue that the relative effect of migration on employment conditions and the availability of housing is SMALL.

It's been pointed out to you a number of times: Yes, people on the left who don't demonise migrants and migration are aware there are issues of skilled people leaving the developing world. However, migration from Africa to Europe is NOT the reason for poor health care or poverty in Africa and many of those who train as (say) nurses only do so to work in Europe.

 

[tbaldwin]

No its nothing like that gay analogy.
I could say its more like being against capitalism without actually condemning everyone who tries to do their best for themselves in that system.
(It has nothing to do with irrational prejudice eventhough you would like it too)


"demonise migrants" nice that you threw that in now.. Are you trying to imply i have been demonising migrants?

 

[durruti02]

So now you ARE saying migrants take "our" jobs?

isambard .. ok what happenned at Gate Gourmet .. bosses used new immigrants to take jobs of sacked workers yes or no???

the truth is that very few people objected when there was full empolyment to immigrant labour ... immigrant labour was not then depressing wages and immigrants overwhelmingly joined the then closed shop unions ...

times are differrent now ...there is now high unemployment probably around 3 million still .. masked thru incapacity benefit , increasing higher education and more part time working .. you really do not have any knowledge of labouring/construction or the public sector if you can not see how immigrant labour has been cynically used

.. in fact this was all said at the start of the thread BUT all the new cowboy firms rely on immigrant labour .. many public sector jobs that dads had down for their kids have been privatised and are now cheap labour .. etc etc etc

 

[tbaldwin]

Teejay,
Where are you?

 

[Isambard]

Durrutii, where did I claim that the bosses don't want to try and use immigrants to force down pay? Errrrm, I never did. It is us to STOP them using migrants in this way and we won't acheive that as long as we alow them to play one section of workers off against the other.

Yes there is unemployment but it is a fallacy to think that stopping immigration will end unemployment. It won't.

 

[tbaldwin]

times are differrent now ...there is now high unemployment probably around 3 million still .. masked thru incapacity benefit , increasing higher education and more part time working ..

I think that Unemployment is probably double that. Which makes the arguements about needing Immigrants even more ridiculous......
Those are just Nationalist arguements that overlook the fact that not everyone in a country has the same interests...
Thats why it appeals to all the stuck up right wing twats on U75 ( he said doing his best not to offend anyone)

 

[Isambard]

Those are just Nationalist arguements that overlook the fact that not everyone in a country has the same interests...
Thats why it appeals to all the stuck up right wing twats on U75

PMSL, you are the one who wants the borders closed to build a "lets all pull together" society.

Who are the "stuck up right wing twats" ?
Do name name please.

I'm quite happy to publicly state I find you an authoritarian nationalist on this issue.

----------

Anyway, a side question. I gather you aren't keen on even EU citizens working in Britain and want the borders more strongly enforced - you mentioned passport and work permits a few ages back. What would you do about the large number of people in Northern Ireland who are and regard themselves solely as Irish Citizens? Would you use the police and army to seal the Irish border?

 

[tbaldwin]

PMSL, you are the one who wants the borders closed to build a "lets all pull together" society.

Who are the "stuck up right wing twats" ?
Do name name please.

I'm quite happy to publicly state I find you an authoritarian nationalist on this issue.

----------

Anyway, a side question. I gather you aren't keen on even EU citizens working in Britain and want the borders more strongly enforced - you mentioned passport and work permits a few ages back. What would you do about the large number of people in Northern Ireland who are and regard themselves solely as Irish Citizens? Would you use the police and army to seal the Irish border?

PMSL?

The right wing twats are the ones who have no respect for the views of ordinary people. A good 60% of people on the UK politics threads.

Authoritarian Nationalist,just shows how little you have understood...
The majority of people on here have views that are far more Nationalistic and Authoritarian than me.
Their elitism on issues like Crime and Immigration and as for people who want Immigrants to pay for their pensions............


As for your point???? about people from the North of Ireland and sealing the border????? I think you may have got me mixed up with someone you dreamed up...

 

[tbaldwin]

Durrutii, where did I claim that the bosses don't want to try and use immigrants to force down pay? Errrrm, I never did. It is us to STOP them using migrants in this way and we won't acheive that as long as we alow them to play one section of workers off against the other.

Yes there is unemployment but it is a fallacy to think that stopping immigration will end unemployment. It won't.

As though anyone has said that stopping immigration will end unemployment.....
Your trying to make out that Durrutti is really stupid and that he hasnt thought the issue through.
It says a lot about prejudice. Yours not his.

 

[Isambard]

Their elitism on issues like Crime and Immigration and as for people who want Immigrants to pay for their pensions............

about people from the North of Ireland and sealing the border????? I think you may have got me mixed up with someone you dreamed up...

For the love of God.

Migration ISN'T a simple left-right issue.
There are some on the left on both sides of the argument
There are some on the right on both sides of the argument.

Urban posters that are "eiltist" on crime and therefore right-wing?
Eh? What? No idea what you are on about.

No, I haven't got you mixed up on the Ireland issue.

You seem opposed to EU citizens working in Britain (the archetypal Polish plumber being an example) so I'm asking, would you let Irish Citizens work in the UK?

You seem to think that we need strong border controls (you mentioned passports and work permits above). Does this apply to the Irish border too?
.

 

[Isambard]

prejudice. Yours not his.

What predudice? Against who?

You know, this argument is about you wanting your bloody cake and eat it.

We get the arguments that migrants/migration are responsible for low pay / unemployment and poor housing.
So we reply with the question "Will stopping migration change that? No it won't!"
To which you reply "oh but we didn't mean that"

I'm not trying to make anyone out to be stupid.
I think your arguments however are wrong.

 

[tbaldwin]

What predudice? Against who?

You know, this argument is about you wanting your bloody cake and eat it.

We get the arguments that migrants/migration are responsible for low pay / unemployment and poor housing.
So we reply with the question "Will stopping migration change that? No it won't!"
To which you reply "oh but we didn't mean that"

I'm not trying to make anyone out to be stupid.
I think your arguments however are wrong.

er Whats the point of having a Cake if your not going to Eat it?????????

Immigration as me and Durruti can be a contributory factor but is not the only factor....
Preety obvious to anyone i would have thought?

 

[Isambard]

er Whats the point of having a Cake if your not going to Eat it??????????

It's a saying, it means that you can eat it AND keep it.
God know what they are teaching the kidz in schools these days, was your teacher an immigrant?

Immigration as me and Durruti can be a contributory factor but is not the only factor.

But the role if it exists is SMALL as opposed to other factors.

 

[exosculate]

Still people flying around on this thread in fantasy land, with clearly no relationship whatsoever with real people in this country and their real views and their real experiences.

The buffoonery - if it wasn't so tragic it would be funny.

 

[sihhi]

We get the arguments that migrants/migration are responsible for low pay / unemployment and poor housing.
So we reply with the question "Will stopping migration change that? No it won't!"
To which you reply "oh but we didn't mean that"

That's not the argument "we" or at least I have been making.
Look to my previous posts on this thread.
I've been describing (a particular form of) modern capitalism and capitalists' use of labour flows to their own advantage.

 

[exosculate]

I've been describing (a particular form of) modern capitalism and capitalists' use of labour flows to their own advantage.

And more importantly if you are coming from a left perspective - the very negative impact this can have on wage levels of the working class in this country and elsewhere.

Manager - Sorry we'll have to let you go - your £6.00 ph wage is excessive and impacting on productivity

Worker - What you're going to employ foreign workers?

Manager - Yes they cost less than minimum wage - and they are assisting the competitiveness of this countrys workforce.

Worker replies.....

Three answers - delete as appropriate.

1) Fecking ballacks that is
2) Fair enough - solidarity with the workers from X. I'll go and sign on.
3) It will all be OK after the revolution

Erm...... Which one of those answers lives in the real world?

 

[sihhi]

That's not the argument "we" or at least I have been making.
Look to my previous posts on this thread.
I've been describing (a particular form of) modern capitalism and capitalists' use of labour flows to their own advantage.

I should also add even though I've said it before- its greatest ill effects are in certain sectors:
1 cleaning
2 catering
3 unskilled contruction
4 textiles (what's left of it)
5 packaging
6 farm seasonal
7 food processing
+ other unskilled/semi-skilled manual jobs.