exosculate
a stagger with a beat
sihhi said:
Indeed.
I would add - increasingly more skilled construction related work to that list.
Immigration .. part of neo liberalism/Thatcherism??
- Thread starter durruti02
- Start date
Indeed.
I would add - increasingly more skilled construction related work to that list.
exosculate
a stagger with a beat
Isambard said:
Thats ermmm - utterly obvious!
I suppose people's views and experiences etc are only "real" when they match your subjective opinions.
Everything else is "middle class" / imaginary" / "left-liberal" / delete as appropriate.
Yeah, I must be imagining the neighbour of mine who is back turning tricks down the station to buy heroin after she got evicted out of her flat cos it was getting privatised for the indigenous middle class.
Everything else is "middle class" / imaginary" / "left-liberal" / delete as appropriate.
Yeah, I must be imagining the neighbour of mine who is back turning tricks down the station to buy heroin after she got evicted out of her flat cos it was getting privatised for the indigenous middle class.
exosculate
a stagger with a beat
Isambard said:I suppose people's views and experiences etc are only "real" when they match your subjective opinions.
Everything else is "middle class" / imaginary" / "left-liberal" / delete as appropriate.
Yeah, I must be imagining the neighbour of mine who is back turning tricks down the station to buy heroin after she got evicted out of her flat cos it was getting privatised for the indigenous middle class.
No I relate real to how people are thinking on the ground, you show me how people are head over heels about wage drops - and I'll consider that you don't live in a left ghetto.
@ Sihhi. I live in an inner city area that is undergoing gentrification. In the final stages if you like. Students, arty people and most of the gays etc can't afford it. A lot of the indigenous working class is dying off or moving away. Of the 4 closest pubs to me which were working class pubs, only 1 survives, the rest are "baahs".
@ Exosculate: Where have I EVER claimed that working class people are happy about bosses trying to force down pay? I'm particuarly interested in the issue of incomes v cost of living. I'm certainly NOT in a left ghetto.
@ Exosculate: Where have I EVER claimed that working class people are happy about bosses trying to force down pay? I'm particuarly interested in the issue of incomes v cost of living. I'm certainly NOT in a left ghetto.
Isamabard interesting that you are now trying to bring gentrification in to the issue.
Looking at places like Hackney and Brixton,White incomers starting ironically enough with students, arty types and gays have forced up prices/rents.
Squatters made those areas a magnet for bohemian types and as the white settlers moved in, it has got harder for Black people to get housing.
Looking at places like Hackney and Brixton,White incomers starting ironically enough with students, arty types and gays have forced up prices/rents.
Squatters made those areas a magnet for bohemian types and as the white settlers moved in, it has got harder for Black people to get housing.
Isambard said:
is .. so how do we stop ..." allow[ing] them to play one section of workers off against the other" .. that is the q.
we will only do that when we have a strong w/c and strong w/c organisations .. currently they are weak .. partly as so many workers have been disallunsionned ( thats not spelt right!!) with the left for their acceptance of a preference for immigration over local sustainable employment ..
we / the w/c have no ability /strength to stop anything at the moment .. let alone fight for better conditions .. we need to start again .. and fighting for good local sustainable employment practices and wages ..and for local housing alloation seems a very positive way forward .. and it in no way means putting down immigrants ( and where i am it would favour afro caribbeans if you are about to say i am racist!
)tbaldwin said:
I haven't "just started now" on gentrification.
I am interested in it and have posted on it many times, including much earlier in this thread.
We've been over it in another thread but I think the students, arty types and gays etc (who while a seperate section perhaps from the already established working class are not necessarily middle class or exploitative) CONTRIBUTE to the inner communities they live in and are part of that as an organism. On the other hand the well to do who come in later want a ready made slightly "edgy" but Jesus not too edgy "alternative culture" that they can CONSUME.
Perhaps they are a catalyst to gentrification?
But where are these "arty types" and the like meant to go?
They certainly aren't wealthy as a rule and can't afford (say) Soho.
When I look at my gay friends locally, none of those younger than me or living here more recently than me, live in the area where I live becasue they can't AFFORD it.
Edit:
@ Durruti:
That is not true.
Seriously, how do you define who is "local" in terms of preferential treatment to get housing?
Isambard said:
er simple .. children of people who live there!! .. sometimes called sons and daughters .. the left always opposed this as 'racist' .. fools .. nowadays as i said it would benefit afro caribbean etc etc ..
and as regards employment .. do you think most lefties would support a campaign that jobs should be given to local umemployed .. no they would say it was racist .. even when again it would benefit afro caribean etc where i live .. that renowned socialist diane abbot complained in her opportunist way that the local health trust was not employing local black youth ..
and why do these institutions not employ local youth .. because they won't pay decent wages ..
I think that people living or even wanting to live where their parents live is in decline and people move more. So I'd have less of a claim where I've lived for 13 years and am part of the community cos I've no family here but more of a claim in my parent's village hundreds of miles away.
I think jobs should be open to anybody. Yes there are issues of unemployment but I don't believe thast jobs should be reserved for "locals only" One of the worst experiences of my life was being thrown out of a job centre (I wasn't claiming, just looking at the adds) with the words from the staff: "You think you can come over here, steal our jobs".
I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Whether Dianne Abbot is a "reknowned socialist" is a thread in itself.
Anyway, off to my part time bar job now. Colleagues of plenty of different nationalities and no one complains that immigrant me keeps the wages down.
Isambard said:I think that people living or even wanting to live where their parents live is in decline and people move more. So I'd have less of a claim where I've lived for 13 years and am part of the community cos I've no family here but more of a claim in my parent's village hundreds of miles away.
BUT IS PEOPLE MOVE MORE BECAUSE IT IS HARDER TO GET JOBS LOCALLY .. THE PARTY OF THE FAMILY THE TORIES AND BLAIR HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO A NEO LIBERAL AGENDA THAT HAS TORN FAMILIES APART .. IN BRITAIN AND GLOBALLY
I think jobs should be open to anybody. Yes there are issues of unemployment but I don't believe thast jobs should be reserved for "locals only" One of the worst experiences of my life was being thrown out of a job centre (I wasn't claiming, just looking at the adds) with the words from the staff: "You think you can come over here, steal our jobs".
LOOKI DO NOT KNOW IF YOU ARE A SOCILIST .. BUT CLEARLY YOU DO NOT LIKE HOW IMMIGRANTS ARE TREATED .. SO PLEASE TELL ME HOW WE CAN BUILD A MOVEMENT TO IMPROVE THE WAY IMMIGRANTS AND ALL ARE TREATED .. IF YOU DO NOT START FROM THE BOTTEM YOU WILL NEVER GET WHERE YOU WANT TO GET
Whether Dianne Abbot is a "reknowned socialist" is a thread in itself.
SORRY .. WAS BEING SARCASTIC!
Anyway, off to my part time bar job now. Colleagues of plenty of different nationalities and no one complains that immigrant me keeps the wages down.
AH THE LIFE OF THE YOUNG AND TRENDY .. COME BACK TO ME WHEN YOU REALLY NEED THE MONEY AND YOU'RE FIRM IS RESTRUCTURING AND DOING A GATE GOURMET AND WHEN YOU AND YOUR PARTNER CAN'T GET HOUSED AND WHEN YOU CAN'T GET YOU KIDS OUT OF THE HOUSE, IN THEIR 20TS, AS THERE IS NO SOCIAL HOUSING ( AND YES WE KNOW ALL THE OTHER ERASONS WHY THERE IS NO SOCIAL HOUSING
..
Will you please stop shouting, thanks.
The world has changed, it has become more globalised.
Yes, that is due to capitalism, not nescessarily the neo-liberal branch capitalism alone though. I think that that globalisation is a step forward to building a global working class.
I don't want to go back to a society where young people go to work in the Acme factory cos their dad did and his dad did and his dad did etc.
I never claimed to have all the answers about how we can change the world for the better. I know that (for better or for worse) there are ALREADY immigrants, they are part of the working class and it does NOTHING for working class solidarity to start letting the class get divided by the bosses into those that "belong" and those that don't.
Errrrm you don't know my age, how "trendy" I am or what I do for a living.
So I should "come back to you" when if and when I face the sharp end of capitalism? It's a "heads I win tails you lose" argument. If I manage to squeeze through the system without suffering too much I'm "trendy middle class liberal" or whatever the label of the week is. If I get fucked up by the system you're on hand to blame migration rather than capitalism.
The world has changed, it has become more globalised.
Yes, that is due to capitalism, not nescessarily the neo-liberal branch capitalism alone though. I think that that globalisation is a step forward to building a global working class.
I don't want to go back to a society where young people go to work in the Acme factory cos their dad did and his dad did and his dad did etc.
I never claimed to have all the answers about how we can change the world for the better. I know that (for better or for worse) there are ALREADY immigrants, they are part of the working class and it does NOTHING for working class solidarity to start letting the class get divided by the bosses into those that "belong" and those that don't.
Errrrm you don't know my age, how "trendy" I am or what I do for a living.
So I should "come back to you" when if and when I face the sharp end of capitalism? It's a "heads I win tails you lose" argument. If I manage to squeeze through the system without suffering too much I'm "trendy middle class liberal" or whatever the label of the week is. If I get fucked up by the system you're on hand to blame migration rather than capitalism.
Isambard said:
i appreciate the middle of your post .. i can not deny that people should have opportunites to do differrent things with their lives .. there was a lot wrong with the old 'community'
BUt BUT BUT i think that most times we see w/c people moving it is not out of choice but neccessity
we all agree that we want a society when people have choice .. the whole point of this thread is to show that in 99% of cases people have moved for economic reasons .. and how capitalism benefits from that
you are quite right that immigrants are members of the w/c .. the q. though is differrent .. the q. has to be how do we build a movement that creates feeedom of choice and movement for all of us .. to me that can only be built by going back to basics .. and that has to be working with what we have in the here and now
tbh i suspect that in a sustainable society movement would be more planned than the m/c ideal of 'i want to go somewhere so i will' .. e.g.clearly the fad for cars and flying is deeply environmentally bad and will have to be rationned
and globalisation good? .. ok a sort of marxist idea that we become all united that capitlism is its own grave digger ?? .. i accept that to an extent .. but disagree that WITHOUT that we could not create change
exosculate
a stagger with a beat
I love this thread - its very interesting. 
Isambard said:
The interesting thing is that people are NOT saying that capitalism is OK, the only problem is migration...But rightly showing how economic migration is part of unregulated capitalism.
The question is how or if we should try and regulate migration.
I do think it is a difficult question but one that should be openly talked about on the left.
Pigeon said:So who's "we"? If "we" don't "regulate" capitalism, it looks pretty fucking likely that "we" also won't get to regulate one of its consequences, doesn't it?
OOOHH you are so clever pigeon. The we is, erm (people in general) and i am in favour of regulating capitalism,including capital and labour....
Well there's the fundamental difference.
Whils i prefer a social model over neo-liberalism I DON'T want to see capitalism run better, I want to see the end of it.
I object to the "we" in the sense of "we are all in it together to make the system work better". Even in a nice fluffy "consensus" model of social democratic capitalism there is still exploitation by the capitalist class of workers.
Indeed, the "consensus" model is specifically chosen by some sections of the capitalist class at a certain time to maximise their profit.
Whils i prefer a social model over neo-liberalism I DON'T want to see capitalism run better, I want to see the end of it.
I object to the "we" in the sense of "we are all in it together to make the system work better". Even in a nice fluffy "consensus" model of social democratic capitalism there is still exploitation by the capitalist class of workers.
Indeed, the "consensus" model is specifically chosen by some sections of the capitalist class at a certain time to maximise their profit.
Isambard said:
For me though it is an easy cop out to say you want the end of capitalism...
But how? and what do you do in the meantime?
As for concensus,the more the better as far as im concerned. You use the word as though it inevitably means compromising with the wishes of rich capitalists but extending democracy to me is the only way to bring about true socialism.
Pigeon said:So who's "we"? If "we" don't "regulate" capitalism, it looks pretty fucking likely that "we" also won't get to regulate one of its consequences, doesn't it?
Govt figures show there are just 95 polish plumbers in the UK!. Which kind of shows how nobody has any idea of the true figures of legal and non legal migrants.
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