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Immigration .. part of neo liberalism/Thatcherism??

Isambard said:
People say things about immigrants and other nationalities all the time to me, maybe I blend in well. But they don't do it at my 2 part time jobs in catering.


I do not know what you look like - but if you look non-white you will never hear the same comments I hear all the time. Views that are not seen as politically acceptable do not disappear they just hide below the surface.
 
exosculate said:
Actually 0.5%, but the reality is probably closer to 1%.

Of course there is correlation - because they drive down wages.


And of course if you do it as a percentage of working population much higher still.
 
Isambard said:
AGAIN, there is no direct correlation between migration and unemployment amongst those already resident.


Do you believe in supply and demand?
Do you believe there is any competition for jobs and housing?
 
exosculate said:
I do not know what you look like - but if you look non-white you will never hear the same comments I hear all the time. Views that are not seen as politically acceptable do not disappear they just hide below the surface.

I'm as white as milk. That's why I sometimes get to hear those opinions that are often just below the surface.

In my 2 part time jobs in catering I have NOT heard complaints that "immigrants are taking our jobs".
 
Isambard said:
I'm as white as milk. That's why I sometimes get to hear those opinions that are often just below the surface.

In my 2 part time jobs in catering I have NOT heard complaints that "immigrants are taking our jobs".


Depends where you live, who you come into contact with etc. This would be a better conversation to have face to face. I'm not suggesting that btw - I just think that a relatively anonymous bulletin board takes away alot of context in this sort of discussion.
 
Exosculate, I'm as white as milk. That's why I sometimes get to hear those opinions that are often just below the surface.

In my 2 part time jobs in catering I have NOT heard complaints that "immigrants are taking our jobs".



tbaldwin said:
Do you believe in supply and demand?
Do you believe there is any competition for jobs and housing?

You aiming to start this massaging of your vastly inflated ego from the beginning again?

The factor of immigrants in the lack of supply of housing is potentially a factor but such a small one to be irrelevent compared to the other factors, imvho.

I'd say in my experience that immigrants have little to no effect on unemployment.
 
Isambard said:
Exosculate, I'm as white as milk. That's why I sometimes get to hear those opinions that are often just below the surface.

In my 2 part time jobs in catering I have NOT heard complaints that "immigrants are taking our jobs".





You aiming to start this massaging of your vastly inflated ego from the beginning again?

The factor of immigrants in the lack of supply of housing is potentially a factor but such a small one to be irrelevent compared to the other factors, imvho.

I'd say in my experience that immigrants have little to no effect on unemployment.


This is quite interesting - though I think data is sketchy.

Home Office Report
 
Fireside readng over Xmas, thanks for the link. :)

Just saw your earlier post; of course it depends on indivdual context.
I'm not discounting what you hear in the building trade etc but my experiences are different.

Face to face? I'd slap you with a rolled up copy of the Grauniad like the middle class wiberal I am - or buy you a real ale pint. :)
 
Isambard said:
I'd say in my experience that immigrants have little to no effect on unemployment.


Your experience must be quite limited then. People compete for jobs and housing. The more competition there is, the harder it gets....
 
Isambard said:
Fireside readng over Xmas, thanks for the link. :)

Just saw your earlier post; of course it depends on indivdual context.
I'm not discounting what you hear in the building trade etc but my experiences are different.

Face to face? I'd slap you with a rolled up copy of the Grauniad like the middle class wiberal I am - or buy you a real ale pint. :)

:)

when i read a paper at all it is the Guardian
 
tbaldwin said:
Your experience must be quite limited then.

What is it with you, you've really bought into the doublethink mindset haven't you?
I'm perfectly happy to accept that people might have different experiences than the ones I have.

But you are not able to accept that people might have experiences that undermind your "arguments".

Lived where I live now for 15 years. An inner city, working class area with relatively high reliance on benefits as income and a high immigrant population. I've been working on and off in catering since I was 14.

Plenty of experience thanks.



<snip>

exosculate said:
:)

when i read a paper at all it is the Guardian

GOTCHA! :)

I've packed in buying it for the Independent on the rare ocaassions I buy a paper. It just gets on my tits, too smarmy and wiberal sometimes.
 
Isamabard no i dont think your experience and understanding throws much light on the subject.
The point is that increased migration obviously leads to increased competition for Jobs and Housing.
If you cant even accept that simple fact then any experience you have is immaterial.
 
Yet more in yesterdays Observer arguing that Britain needs more migrant workers.
Conveniently overlooking the fact that there is anything up to 8 million people in the UK of working age who are either underemployed or unemployed. And overlooking the consequences internationally.
We are all supposed to fall for this "In our National Interests" arguement. But the interests of people competing for jobs and housing is very different from those who gain most from migrant labour.
 
the pro capitalists on here have continually conveniantly ignored the gate gourmet dispute and the abuse of immigrants by the bosses to attack workers


so i guess you will do exactly the same for the irish ferries outrage :rolleyes:
 
The Gate Gourmet dispute and the Irish ferries issue show the need for Socialists to address the issue of migration openly and honestly.
One thing about this thread durrutti,It has shown how little confidence the Orthodox Left really have on the issue. Once upon a time they would have called people like us Racists but they seem to have given that up as a bad idea.
And their own Anti Racism has come in for a bit of a going over.
 
Isambard said:
Exosculate, I'm as white as milk. That's why I sometimes get to hear those opinions that are often just below the surface.

.


A lot of Asian people and Black people are firmly against mass migration,in a way that white middle class people cant seem to understand.
We see what the competition for jobs means for us and our families. Many service industry jobs are going to White Europeans,South Africans and Australians.
This only makes things worse for many Black and Asian people.
 
I've been reading Jack London's People of the Abyss today. I thought that this quote was quite apt:

I stopped a moment to listen to an argument on the Mile End Waste. It was night-time, and they were all workmen of the better class. They had surrounded one of their number, a pleasant-faced man of thirty, and were giving it to him rather heatedly.

“But ’ow about this ’ere cheap immigration?” one of them demanded. “The Jews of Whitechapel, say, a-cutting our throats right along?”

“You can’t blame them,” was the answer. “They’re just like us, and they’ve got to live. Don’t blame the man who offers to work cheaper than you and gets your job.”

“But ’ow about the wife an’ kiddies?” his interlocutor demanded.

“There you are,” came the answer. “How about the wife and kiddies of the man who works cheaper than you and gets your job? Eh? How about his wife and kiddies? He’s more interested in them than in yours, and he can’t see them starve. So he cuts the price of labour and out you go. But you mustn’t blame him, poor devil. He can’t help it. Wages always come down when two men are after the same job. That’s the fault of competition, not of the man who cuts the price.”

“But wyges don’t come down where there’s a union,” the objection was made.

“And there you are again, right on the head. The union cheeks competition among the labourers, but makes it harder where there are no unions. There’s where your cheap labour of Whitechapel comes in. They’re unskilled, and have no unions, and cut each other’s throats, and ours in the bargain, if we don’t belong to a strong union.”

Without going further into the argument, this man on the Mile End Waste pointed the moral that when two men were after the one job wages were bound to fall. Had he gone deeper into the matter, he would have found that even the union, say twenty thousand strong, could not hold up wages if twenty thousand idle men were trying to displace the union men. This is admirably instanced, just now, by the return and disbandment of the soldiers from South Africa. They find themselves, by tens of thousands, in desperate straits in the army of the unemployed. There is a general decline in wages throughout the land, which, giving rise to labour disputes and strikes, is taken advantage of by the unemployed, who gladly pick up the tools thrown down by the strikers.

Sweating, starvation wages, armies of unemployed, and great numbers of the homeless and shelterless are inevitable when there are more men to do work than there is work for men to do. The men and women I have met upon the streets, and in the spikes and pegs, are not there because as a mode of life it may be considered a “soft snap.” I have sufficiently outlined the hardships they undergo to demonstrate that their existence is anything but “soft.”
 
Divisive Cotton said:
I've been reading Jack London's People of the Abyss today. I thought that this quote was quite apt:


I agree with that. Its still the case of when demand for Jobs is high,companies can lower wages.
The people arguing for more economic migration really do have their head in the clouds. Ignoring the different consequences for different classes in the UK and also ignoring the consequences of taking the people poor countries need most.

Also agreed with Geeta about the way the white middle class liberal types dont understand why most Black and Asian people are opposed to more large scale immigration.
 
durruti02 said:
the pro capitalists on here have continually conveniantly ignored the gate gourmet dispute and the abuse of immigrants by the bosses to attack workers


so i guess you will do exactly the same for the irish ferries outrage :rolleyes:

and still igoring it .. i might do a daily mirror WMD clock over how long the left on here ignore whats going on with scum capitalists using immigrants
 
geeta said:
A lot of Asian people and Black people are firmly against mass migration,in a way that white middle class people cant seem to understand.
We see what the competition for jobs means for us and our families. Many service industry jobs are going to White Europeans,South Africans and Australians.
This only makes things worse for many Black and Asian people.


Exactly - which is why this is not an issue of rascism, but rather a fear of a neo-liberal assault on working conditions etc.
 
exosculate said:
Exactly - which is why this is not an issue of rascism, but rather a fear of a neo-liberal assault on working conditions etc.


I dont agree with this.I think the issue has everything to do with Racism. Because the impact of free market migration policies has a lot more negative effects on Black and Asian people.
They are the ones who suffer most.
 
tbaldwin said:
I dont agree with this.I think the issue has everything to do with Racism. Because the impact of free market migration policies has a lot more negative effects on Black and Asian people.
They are the ones who suffer most.


Disagree - it also affects badly East Europeans as well as white British as well as other groups. To me it negatively impacts on all working class people of any ethnicity etc and positively impacts on the wealthy of any ethnicity etc
 
exosculate said:
Disagree - it also affects badly East Europeans as well as white British as well as other groups. To me it negatively impacts on all working class people of any ethnicity etc and positively impacts on the wealthy of any ethnicity etc


Well maybe to an extent. But i think many eastern european countries will get EU money which will help them develop.
I think there is a racial element here. Many employers would rather have a Polish or Slovakian nanny or barmaid than a Black one. And unemployment and underemployment for Black people even in London is shockingly high.
 
a very honest but contreversial viewpoint, what do people think about this?


A lot of Asian people and Black people are firmly against mass migration,in a way that white middle class people cant seem to understand.
 
tbaldwin said:
I agree with that. Its still the case of when demand for Jobs is high,companies can lower wages.
The people arguing for more economic migration really do have their head in the clouds. Ignoring the different consequences for different classes in the UK and also ignoring the consequences of taking the people poor countries need most.

Also agreed with Geeta about the way the white middle class liberal types dont understand why most Black and Asian people are opposed to more large scale immigration.
Do you actually have any solid evidence to back up either one of these claims?
 
tbaldwin said:
Well maybe to an extent. But i think many eastern european countries will get EU money which will help them develop.
I think there is a racial element here. Many employers would rather have a Polish or Slovakian nanny or barmaid than a Black one. And unemployment and underemployment for Black people even in London is shockingly high.


I take your point.
 
TeeJay said:
Do you actually have any solid evidence to back up either one of these claims?
Evidence? For supply and demand? Or for Migration having different consequences for different classes of people?

I think its so bloody obvious Teejay that i really dont get your point?
 
tbaldwin said:
Evidence? For supply and demand? Or for Migration having different consequences for different classes of people?

I think its so bloody obvious Teejay that i really dont get your point?


Teejay always asks for evidence for things that are obvious - most other people don't get his point either.
 
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