Immigrant workers are scab workers?

[durruti02]

Even more millions of poor flooding into western Europe and North America.

And people accusing us of being Moselyites It didn't take long, as soon as the orthodox liberal left dross can't answer they have to resort to screaming wascist at us.

What the fuck use to workers in the developing world are we if we can't even organise to defend the interests of those workers in our own communities and workplaces?

Wasn't it the Zapatista leader who when asked what European revolutionaries could do to help his movement said about organise in our own countries and tackling our own bosses? It was some well respected developing world activist anyway.

can i nominate SUBtoo!!

"What the fuck use to workers in the developing world are we if we can't even organise to defend the interests of those workers in our own communities and workplaces?"

fking class bruv!!!!

 

[poster342002]

i hereby on january 12th 2007 do solemnly nominate poster34002 as the PnP poster of the year!!

Thanks! It's great to - finally - be appreciated! You've cheered me up!

 

[belboid]

i hereby on january 12th 2007 do solemnly nominate poster34002 as the PnP idiot of the year!!

I agree!







<please note that this is a cruel and unusual pisstake of durutti's post, based on my opinion that it was a very silly one. hope thet'll do d>

 

[belboid]

Not really. The capitalist machine has mutated and outlived the need for it's operators - which it now intends to cast into the dustbin of history. Just keep watching the mass layoffs - eventually, you'll beleive me. Sooner or later.

so who is going to buy their products? do you understand economic theory at all? you clearly have no understanding of/agreement with marxist economic theory.

 

[poster342002]

he has no theory - other than the absurd one that the banks are going to allowed unemployed ex-workers permanent access to credit that they cant pay off.

>sigh< I do not argue that - I argue that there will be a small, rapidly hired and fired and continually replaced amount of workers who are employed for short periods of time on very low wages supplemented by credit. When those workers inevtably go bust, the banks reap their possessions and the employers just recruit another batch from the pool of unemployed.

 

[durruti02]

there is a Polish branch already, and a seperate, not exactly a union, formed along exactly the line northernhoard mentioned.

THAT is how to stop such attempts at splitting workers, not by going along with nationalistic little englander crap.

belboid NO ONE disagrees with these organising attempts!!!!!!!! we ALL support the TNG and who ever else in this ..

the argument is what happens with the rest of the population!!!

p.s. many immigrants will NOT join unions for 2 reasons 1) as they are in the grey/black economy and would be sacked straight away if they did and 20 many are just here to make some money and then go home ( and fair play to them!!) and would not want the hassle of unions

 

[poster342002]

so who is going to buy their products? do you understand economic theory at all? you clearly have no understanding of/agreement with marxist economic theory.

belboid, I've gone over it and over it and over it. All you can do is screech like a dalek that this DOES NOT COMPUTE!! SCENARIO IMPOSSIBLE!!

I can't be arsed with you anymore.

 

[durruti02]

You see from where I stand Immigration is the solution.

They earn money here but don't spend it here, they send a huge proportion of it home, that keeps interest rates low which in turn creates jobs (in capital based economies at any rate), they also pay tax here but return home before they ever qualify for pensions and they tend not to be a burden on the NHS because they are disproportionally young and healthy.

Fucking god send is what they are. I don't know if you've noticed as well but don't you prefer being in a pub with Polish bar staff? They are happy, motivated, enthusiastic and intelligently all of which are not qualities held by the typical Anglo working in the catering trade.

 

[durruti02]

I actually want a world where there has been a fucking massive redistribution of wealth so that people are not forced to migrate merely to survive, but do so because they like the climate or the music or the food of another country. Narrow minded protectionism does not help bring that world about in the slightest. In fact it does exactly the opposite.

BUT WE ALL DO!!!!!

the argument is over what effect immigration has had on that struggle and therfore what our response is .. and it is NOT protectionism that is being argued for BUT thinking global and attacking local

posters post about capital labour and the left is very true

 

[durruti02]

Except, of course, as bellboid has so elegantly elucidated, this simply isn't true.

Remember The Philippines, tbaldwin? You never responded to my posts elsewhere. Under the policies you espouse, the country would collapse and hundreds of thousands - probably millions - would starve to death.

There are some disruptions - nurses from The Philippines are attracted to overseas work and this can create temporary shortages. But what you may not know, is that some 50,000 peeps a year in The Philippines are starting nursing school for the sole purpose of trying to get a job overseas. Many of these people could study other subjects, but (surprise, surprise,) nursing is one of the most popular choices of study in the country today.

Of these @ 50,000 peeps a year graduating from nursing school, many will leave the country, many will be unable to for a whole variety of reasons. The NET effect will be an increase in the number of nursing staff available in The Philippines - especially once the overseas workers begin to return, as the vast majority always do.


Your "one trick pony" objection to immigration is spurious to the point of being ridiculous.



Woof

so capitalism is fine to you jessie then

 

[durruti02]

but, they dont. despite the weakening of union power and loosening of employment laws, workers dont just get sacked at the drop of a hat.

you are having a laugh!!!

 

[exosculate]

I think the job market is splintering into three distinct areas in the UK

1) A small section of high skilled technically specific jobs many connected to manufacturing in some way. The manufacturing itself shrinking rapidly
2) A highly skilled small sector of service based jobs

3) By far the biggest group an increasing de-skilled service based group of jobs. Where most people are feeling the squeeze to one degree or another. This is the group that is growing rapidly whilst the others are shrinking.

I know its simplistic, but thats broadly where i think things are going.

 

[exosculate]

you are having a laugh!!!

I think Belboid works in Local Government.

 

[durruti02]

But not totally.
A good example of this would be the work of somebody like Len Hockey at Whipps Cross Hospital.

Another tactic that can be used is, if their is a long standing union in a work place get them to stick up for the rights of casual labour.

I think that it is mad to try and set up dynamics specifically around Migrant Labour. I have talked to people who have had some involvement in this with Polish Workers with T&G, Trades Councils etc.

I can see this as being very divisive in the workplace & Trade Union Movement. It seems to be supported if not created by individuals in the ISG & Ex IMG members now in the Labour Party. The answer in my opinion would be to try and organise casual labour as a whole and try and convince people in established workplaces that the conditions of these workers will effect them eventually, 'liberalising' their conditions at work.

Their is some truth in what Baldy is saying, the brain/skill drain in countries/areas where migrants come is devastaing for these regions. The recent wave of migration from Eastern Europe has definitely affected wages in, almost without doubt within areas such as constrution.However as long as Capitalism exists people will be forced to leave their partners and families, friends and fellow countrymen to work abroad. It would be only divisive and derrogetory for working class people as a whole not to accept them, not to scapegoat them for the problems and issues of which they have no control over and influence them through the contradictions of the system for a socialist agenda and Trade Union Involvement

excellent post .. totally agree .. talk about casual staff NOT migrant

 

[durruti02]

Originally Posted by durruti02
i hereby on january 12th 2007 do solemnly nominate poster34002 as the PnP idiot of the year!!

I agree!

belboid please delete this post OR make clear you have edited my words .. edited others words/posts is a clear breach of board manners!

 

[belboid]

>sigh< I do not argue that - I argue that there will be a small, rapidly hired and fired and continually replaced amount of workers who are employed for short periods of time on very low wages supplemented by credit. When those workers inevtably go bust, the banks reap their possessions and the employers just recruit another batch from the pool of unemployed.

well, thats actually a notable development of the previusly stated version you gave, but still one that is impossible. there still would not be enough money to going round the economy to keep capital going. the situation you suggest would require a very substantial level of profitability - or why would they bother, whereas your suggestion could only ever sustain a very low level of profits. And the banks would just stop giving out that credit, repossessions not actually being (very) profitable for them.

 

[exosculate]

excellent post .. totally agree .. talk about casual staff NOT migrant

Yes i forgot to say i thought that was a good post too Nigel.

 

[belboid]

belboid NO ONE disagrees with these organising attempts!!!!!!!! we ALL support the TNG and who ever else in this ..

no d - YOU agree, not everyone else does.

 

[exosculate]

no d - YOU agree, not everyone else does.

I agree too belboid.

 

[belboid]

you are having a laugh!!!

not at all. I'm not denying that such treatment does happen, I am arguing that it is not 'the norm'. In very small workplaces, especially ones where the owner stands over you, then it is quite often true - but such workplaces provide a small percentage of jobs overall.

 

[durruti02]

no d - YOU agree, not everyone else does.

go on then .. who does not?

 

[durruti02]

not at all. I'm not denying that such treatment does happen, I am arguing that it is not 'the norm'. In very small workplaces, especially ones where the owner stands over you, then it is quite often true - but such workplaces provide a small percentage of jobs overall.

fair play .. but this is what the whole discusion is coming to .. that a lot of people do well from immigration but a very large % at the bottom do not .. and they are often in the areas where workplace rights have detiriorated badly .. in large swathes of previously highly organised manual w/c hire and fire is now standard

 

[exosculate]

not at all. I'm not denying that such treatment does happen, I am arguing that it is not 'the norm'. In very small workplaces, especially ones where the owner stands over you, then it is quite often true - but such workplaces provide a small percentage of jobs overall.

Not that small a group i would say. Anyway they get round it by increasing the pool of people who aren't employees in the first place i.e agency/casual/self employed. You don't even have to sack people in these positions.

 

[belboid]

anyhow - until torybaldwin returns to actualy answer some of the questions he has been busy dodging for the last two days+ (most of which could also be aimed at you exo), I'm off to do something more interesting. Much as I enjoy going round in circles, I think I've had enough for today.

btw durutti - why are you so keen to find people who supposedly agree with you, but who actually dont (eg balders & exo (?) in relation to immigration comntrols? do you think it helps your case? to me it undermines it significantly

 

[durruti02]

btw durutti - why are you so keen to find people who supposedly agree with you, but who actually dont (eg balders & exo (?) in relation to immigration comntrols? do you think it helps your case? to me it undermines it significantly

odd! i don't .. TB is a longtime friend from afa days .. tis all

though TB makes some very important points about the damage forced migration does both here and abroad ..

not sure what exo believes .. tell me!

 

[snadge]

but, they dont. despite the weakening of union power and loosening of employment laws, workers dont just get sacked at the drop of a hat.

yes they fucking do, you fool.

 

[belboid]

not sure what exo believes .. tell me!

i'll let him do that! wouldnt like to get him wrong.

 

[exosculate]

anyhow - until torybaldwin returns to actualy answer some of the questions he has been busy dodging for the last two days+ (most of which could also be aimed at you exo), I'm off to do something more interesting. Much as I enjoy going round in circles, I think I've had enough for today.

btw durutti - why are you so keen to find people who supposedly agree with you, but who actually dont (eg balders & exo (?) in relation to immigration comntrols? do you think it helps your case? to me it undermines it significantly

What a patronising buffoon you are, you hardly know what i think. You just get angry when people don't agree with you. Its because your an SWP type - you never shake that style of politics.

 

[exosculate]

i'll let him do that! wouldnt like to get him wrong.

You've already said you know what i think, now you're saying you don't.

Very silly.

 

[belboid]

yes they fucking do, you fool.

read on macfudd