Immigrant workers are scab workers?

[poster342002]

So they lose the job they would have lost anyway? Hey ho.

In other words there's no reason not to organise, just a choice between dying slowly while making a profit for the boss, or dying quickly.

The worker (like all people with an ounce of something other than bat-shit between their ears) knows that he will be exploited. Unless he and his fellow workers (whether employed or unemployed) organise that exploitation will be unameliorated.

Yeah, I know that - you know that. But the ingrained irrationality in the popular psyche refuses to accept that (I've gone on at length about how it seems impossible to organise in any workplace I ever been in). Everyone slips into "wildebeast mode" and runs honking across the industrial plain - in the hope the lion will maul someone else first. The fact that they outnumber the lion and could easily force it to shove off simply seems an alien concept to most.

 

[tbaldwin]

That's about as likely as Uma Thurman giving you a nosh then swallowing, I'm afraid.

Balders would much rather not exert his exalted intellect on such bagatelles as "answering the fucking points" when it can be so much more gainfully employed on sneering, smearing and generally acting like a pus-covered cockweasel.

Come on now thats not entirely fair VP.

 

[poster342002]

As for "just get replaced", are you seriously contending that business will cut off their noses with training costs (because, despite what you say about most jobs being "unskilled", they're actually "semi-skilled" at least), merely to spite their faces?

I've seen various managements get into "we're making a point and are not backing down - whatever the cost" mode in many personal dispute cases. Even where their actions would appear to defy all logic and rationale - on their own, capitalist terms at that. The system and it's supporters are completely out of control.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Something no one has answered me on is this:

Loads of employment agencies and suchlike set up shop in EE countries ages ago - why didn't Western European unions do the same so that they were on a similar footing to the employment agencies, and at least attempting to get the message through that undercutting local wages was only going to help the bosses blah-di-blah?

I mean it seems like a missed opportunity to me, but you know me, hopelessly out of my depth for matters of the left...

I'd speculate that bodies such as the TUC suffered from a combination of not believing the hype and their fairly typical complacency on matters as pedestrian (to them) as pan-national labour organisation.

 

[Nigel]

Its virtually impossible to unionise agency staff.

But not totally.
A good example of this would be the work of somebody like Len Hockey at Whipps Cross Hospital.

Another tactic that can be used is, if their is a long standing union in a work place get them to stick up for the rights of casual labour.

I think that it is mad to try and set up dynamics specifically around Migrant Labour. I have talked to people who have had some involvement in this with Polish Workers with T&G, Trades Councils etc.

I can see this as being very divisive in the workplace & Trade Union Movement. It seems to be supported if not created by individuals in the ISG & Ex IMG members now in the Labour Party. The answer in my opinion would be to try and organise casual labour as a whole and try and convince people in established workplaces that the conditions of these workers will effect them eventually, 'liberalising' their conditions at work.

Their is some truth in what Baldy is saying, the brain/skill drain in countries/areas where migrants come is devastaing for these regions. The recent wave of migration from Eastern Europe has definitely affected wages in, almost without doubt within areas such as constrution.However as long as Capitalism exists people will be forced to leave their partners and families, friends and fellow countrymen to work abroad. It would be only divisive and derrogetory for working class people as a whole not to accept them, not to scapegoat them for the problems and issues of which they have no control over and influence them through the contradictions of the system for a socialist agenda and Trade Union Involvement

 

[belboid]

That's about as likely as Uma Thurman giving you a nosh then swallowing, I'm afraid.

she spits??!! i am disapointed.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yeah, I know that - you know that. But the ingrained irrationality in the popular psyche refuses to accept that (I've gone on at length about how it seems impossible to organise in any workplace I ever been in). Everyone slips into "wildebeast mode" and runs honking across the industrial plain - in the hope the lion will maul someone else first. The fact that they outnumber the lion and could easily force it to shove off simply seems an alien concept to most.

I think you're extrapolating what is an unfortunately fairly typical British (and in some cases "western") reaction to matters pertaining to organisation to fit worldwide, which they (IMO) don't.
IME (which to be fair only takes in my relatives in Ukraine and friends in Turkey and Malaysia) the "wildebeest mode" doesn't apply anywhere near as much in nations where the social safety net is either more fragile or non-existent. It's much nearer to a fatalistic "what are they going to do, kill me? I'm dying anyway".

 

[tbaldwin]

Their is some truth in what Baldy is saying, the brain/skill drain in countries/areas where migrants come is devastaing for these regions. The recent wave of migration from Eastern Europe has definitely affected wages in, almost without doubt within areas such as constrution.However as long as Capitalism exists people will be forced to leave their partners and families, friends and fellow countrymen to work abroad. It would be only divisive and derrogetory for working class people as a whole not to accept them, not to scapegoat them for the problems and issues of which they have no control over and influence them through the contradictions of the system for a socialist agenda and Trade Union Involvement

Myself an Durruti are all for including migrants in any campaign for better pay and conditions and ultimately Socialism.
But that doesnt mean ignoring the devastating consequences of economic migration.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Come on now thats not entirely fair VP.

Okay, I retract the "pus-covered".

 

[poster342002]

I think you're extrapolating what is an unfortunately fairly typical British (and in some cases "western") reaction to matters pertaining to organisation to fit worldwide, which they (IMO) don't.
IME (which to be fair only takes in my relatives in Ukraine and friends in Turkey and Malaysia) the "wildebeest mode" doesn't apply anywhere near as much in nations where the social safety net is either more fragile or non-existent. It's much nearer to a fatalistic "what are they going to do, kill me? I'm dying anyway".

You're probably right. I'm more going by what attitudes I see here in the UK.

 

[belboid]

Still no answer belboid?

not having been online, I didnt give one, no. However I do note, yet again, that you are refusing to answer any of the earlier points and questions, and so have - way hey! - ever so slightly rephrased one of yours.

This question, in fact, makes no sense whatsofuckingever. You wish people to stay in situations where they are malnourished, for them to leave would be for them to scab, according to your twisted logic. You have not established how stopping emigration would actually improve local nourishment (and you might find it hard to do so as the large majority of third world - western nations migrants come from urban, non-food producing, areas. Nor have you explained exactly how working for western companies in those urban areas - companies who overwhelmingly export their profits back to the west (and companies who often make pension payments to western workers out of the profits extracted from those countries) will mean there is more money etc to trickle down locally. Indeed, it is just a restatement of your earlier point, except there is an actual fact there! just not one that is particularly relevant to this thread (except in stating that the TW is really fucked up).

now, are you ever going to properly answer the points put to you earlier? can you actually explain how your non-racist pro-working class internationalist imigraton controls (and well armed border patrols) are actually going to work?

 

[ViolentPanda]

she spits??!! i am disapointed.

So was I mate, so was I.

 

[exosculate]

Sexists

 

[Nigel]

Myself an Durruti are all for including migrants in any campaign for better pay and conditions and ultimately Socialism.
But that doesnt mean ignoring the devastating consequences of economic migration.

Like i said i've been talking to individuals in and around socialist resistance about this and Labour left whom I expect for different reasons possibly, especially with your sympathies for third positionist/'radical' centre politics, I am very critical on the program they are working towards in this area.

I missed a meeting recentely by a guy John Duffy (CPB) who is an academic at Birbeck I think who is doing work in this area. Whose ideas I am more sympathetic towards. Met up with individuals who know him before Xmas to see if I can aget some dialogue with him about doing some work in this area.

What are your proposals in this area Baldy???
What do you and Pat Harrington propose in Solidarity????

 

[ViolentPanda]

You're probably right. I'm more going by what attitudes I see here in the UK.

In which case your analysis is reasonable. 30 years of unrelenting pressure from Capital and especially its' proponents and adherents in the media and in government on the very idea of labour organisation, the demonisation of union membership, the over-emphasis on excesses and under-emphasis of successes, all of it has made many people, especially the generations that came into the labour force post 1979, quite literally scared of trade union membership.

Me, if I had my way, I'd resurrect not only trade union membership as a (effective) social good, but the idea of unions of unemployed workers and non-workers too.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Sexists

Tediously humourless anti-sexist.

 

[poster342002]

In which case your analysis is reasonable. 30 years of unrelenting pressure from Capital and especially its' proponents and adherents in the media and in government on the very idea of labour organisation, the demonisation of union membership, the over-emphasis on excesses and under-emphasis of successes, all of it has made many people, especially the generations that came into the labour force post 1979, quite literally scared of trade union membership.

Me, if I had my way, I'd resurrect not only trade union membership as a (effective) social good, but the idea of unions of unemployed workers and non-workers too.

Spot-on post.

 

[exosculate]

Tediously humourless anti-sexist.

.....

 

[ViolentPanda]

.....

Why are you poking your tongue out at me, are you offering to swallow in Uma's place?

 

[durruti02]

My fear is that capital has finally succeeded in freeing itself of labour - or is about to complete such a move.

This was hitherto presumed impossible by marxists - hence I think it's part of the reason why they unable to come up with a logical plan of action in response to it. The situation is outside thier comprehension and point of reference - therefore, it simply "cannot" be happening.

this is maybe post of the year .. serious ..

well maybe not of year but it is a very very good thought/ post

 

[TeeJay]

When you do it, it is offensive.
When I do it is, is a joke.

(Take that whichever way you want )

 

[durruti02]

sorry i must have missed the chronic unemployment currently gripping the UK.

yes you clearly have .. and there is a suprise .. shown yourself up haven't you!!

there are around 3 million unemployed ( ILO plus those put on the sick years ago) currently ... not angry and on street corners like 20 and more years ago but sat indoors and angry ...

you probably also missed that london has over 40% youth unemployment

 

[belboid]

this is maybe post of the year .. serious ..

well maybe not of year but it is a very very good thought/ post

even tho it is utterly nonsensical? capitalism without workers - impossible, quite simply.

 

[durruti02]

belboid, revol68

All I can add is that the current and persistantly enduring dismal state of workers' resistance is testiment to my theory being more likely to be correct than yours.

Events speak far louder than words.

almost spot on mate

there are other factors like the % who are now home owners, actual political attacks on workers and on union rights etc etc BUT essentially these were all part of neo liberalism/thatcherism .. part of the same thing ..

 

[poster342002]

this is maybe post of the year .. serious ..

well maybe not of year but it is a very very good thought/ post

Albiet a chilling one. It, however, is one we need to face up to and tackle PDQ if anything is to be salvaged before it's too late - although I fear it already is.

 

[durruti02]

that your only feasible alternative is fucking appaling - 'strong' borders where immigrants are killed coming in (like on the spanish african border) and a vast number of people coming in anyway but having no alternative to work illegally and at rates which undercut local workers. More (more more) immigration controls may sound like they would protect local workers, but the reality is completely different.

for me this HAS been addressed a million times yet you continue to repeat it .. the solution is NOT In control but in controlling demand through better labour laws, stopping cheap labour recruitment, union powerr etc etc

 

[belboid]

not sure where posters' above comment camne originally, i missed it whenever it was. however it is, yet again, utterly unargued nonsense. it doesnt even make sense. and he has no theory - other than the absurd one that the banks are going to allowed unemployed ex-workers permanent access to credit that they cant pay off.

 

[durruti02]

Marx said "workers of the world unite", not "workers of the world scramble around the globe competing and outbidding each other for work to the benefit of the capitalists".

i hereby on january 12th 2007 do solemnly nominate poster34002 as the PnP poster of the year!!

 

[poster342002]

capitalism without workers - impossible, quite simply.

Not really. The capitalist machine has mutated and outlived the need for it's operators - which it now intends to cast into the dustbin of history. Just keep watching the mass layoffs. Eventually, you'll believe me. Sooner or later.

 

[belboid]

for me this HAS been addressed a million times yet you continue to repeat it .. the solution is NOT In control but in controlling demand through better labour laws, stopping cheap labour recruitment, union powerr etc etc

YOU argue that - and I agree. torybaldwin, however, argues precisely FOR such border controls. See, you two dont actually agree on the issue, except on some of the terms to use. dunno what poster actually thinks