Immigrant workers are scab workers?

[belboid]

Sorry - I was obviously wrong. Dismissal and appeal proceedures always take the benevolent view and reinstate sacked workers against the wishes of the bosses. Silly me.

x100000

I didnt say that tho, did I?

Your inability to defend your statement has been duly noted tho. You really are doing very very badly indeed on this thread.

 

[poster342002]

Better to focus on how many people should be allowed to settle annually

I think Canada follows this practise.

 

[poster342002]

I didnt say that tho, did I?

Your inability to defend your statement has been duly noted tho. You really are doing very very badly indeed on this thread.

belboid - you've got more projections than a local cinema.

 

[belboid]

grow up you sad prick. there aren't even any 'projections' in that comment. If you have anything to say, say it. Then try and actually back it up with more than mere assertion. Because all you have done on this thread so far is show up your utter ignorance on everything you have commented upon, and you have not even attempted to justify or even defend your last two assertions.

 

[tbaldwin]

Except, of course, as bellboid has so elegantly elucidated, this simply isn't true.

Remember The Philippines, tbaldwin? You never responded to my posts elsewhere. Under the policies you espouse, the country would collapse and hundreds of thousands - probably millions - would starve to death.

There are some disruptions - nurses from The Philippines are attracted to overseas work and this can create temporary shortages. But what you may not know, is that some 50,000 peeps a year in The Philippines are starting nursing school for the sole purpose of trying to get a job overseas. Many of these people could study other subjects, but (surprise, surprise,) nursing is one of the most popular choices of study in the country today.

Of these @ 50,000 peeps a year graduating from nursing school, many will leave the country, many will be unable to for a whole variety of reasons. The NET effect will be an increase in the number of nursing staff available in The Philippines - especially once the overseas workers begin to return, as the vast majority always do.


Your "one trick pony" objection to immigration is spurious to the point of being ridiculous.



Woof

Oh the towering intellect of Jessie dog the ex pat. Trying to justify economic migrartion ,,,worked for you anyway didnt it..
Your erm er FACTS around the Phillipines are gently amusing.....2 + 2 = 17 does it? Well i suppose it does when your living it up at somebody elses expense.
There was a long bit on news 24 highlighting the case of the Phillipines and the crisis in its health services caused by economic migration...
You probably missed it....And to be honest youve probably got private medical insurance like lots of ex pats and rich people who want to pretend that economic migration is a good thing....

 

[tbaldwin]

Seems ridiculous to frame the debate in terms of 'let no-one in' versus 'let everybody in', as the only countries which adopt the former are crapholes like North Korea, and no country which can afford to allows the latter.

Better to focus on how many people should be allowed to settle annually and what qualities you're looking for, or discuss whether guest worker schemes have any merit (not sure that they do IMO).

It is ridiculous...Nobody has said there should be zero immigration.
Critics of Economic migration are not all Fascists or Tories etc as the 'oooh your being so nasty to immigrnats brigade' seem to want to believe...

The right wing elements on here like belboid who argue that actually its good for everyone,justifying it with their twisted trickle down economics. Cant construct a decent arguement and instead have to put up the oh so constructive arguement of 'your nasty racists really aernt you'

 

[belboid]

stop lying baldwin and actually answer the fucking points raised. You clearly dont even understand what trickle down economics are if you think I have posted up any justification of them.

No doubt you are trying to hide behind the fact that you cant actually reply to my points and so are making shit up. And no one has called you a racist on this thread - you are making that up to try and avoid the argument (and maybe hope some gullible fool will not notice your lies) exactly as fridge said you (and others) do on one of the other million immigration threads.

Deal with the actual points argued or fuck off, you reactionary little shit.

oh - and do tell us what migration you WOULD allow. Another thing you have always refused to do (as it would no doubt expose yet more of your hypocrisy)

 

[poster342002]

Oh dear. The "internet hardman" act is dusted off for another airing.

 

[belboid]

oh please grow up. there is no 'hardness' to my comments, simple exasperation at lying little shits. If you find words too hard for you, perhaps you should return to primary school

 

[tbaldwin]

.

And still, it's a crap argument, that is simply untrue. I note that you dont even attempt to define what you mean by 'poorer' countries, best to leave everything as vague as possible really isnt it? Do you include people moving from france to germany (or vice versa, not sure which is poorer)? Or does such a movement also have 'catastrophic consequences'? (there's another undefined - and unexampled - thing - whatever these 'catastrophic consequences' are - i suspect they are a touch of sound and fury signifying nothing). Ireland (as was noted ono a previous thread) had very high levels of emigration (fucking scum, trying to improve their lives), to such an extent that the government was forced to actually, mm, sort out their economy and make it the fastest growing in europe with concomitant levels of immigration. Total basket case Ireland now, isnt it?

QUOTE]

You really are a conformist aernt you trouble is that you conform to such a crappy set of ideas...
What i mean by poorer countries suprise doesnt include France or Germany............
Ireland as you might just have noticed has seen a huge rise in its economic fortunes since the EU started giving them money.....Which does seem a bit similar in some respects to reparations which ive argued for for developing countries....Years and years of economic migration for Irish people created misery for many Irish people.

 

[poster342002]

belboid - do you think we recoil from the screen in fright at your laughable ranting and snarling?

 

[belboid]

learn to read dear boy. I have no interest in causing such a tender soul as you any fright at all, tho getting you to vactually put an argument would be nice.

As it is people recoil from the screen in hysterics at the blatant rubbish you post up.

Now come on, try putting a coherent developed critique/view/theory/alternative/argument together rather than just chucking out the insults. balders does talk a load of complete tosh (and I am still awaiting your response to my actual points baldy, rather than the one example, which you have just denied, rather than argued against) but he does at least usually try and develop his position a little bit. Sometimes he even includes actual facts rather than mere assertions!

 

[poster342002]

try putting a coherent developed critique/view/theory/alternative/argument together rather than just chucking out the insults.

That's rich.

 

[belboid]

I'll take that as an admission that you are incapable of doing so then.

 

[tbaldwin]

Oh, but its the loss of skilled workers thats the real problem, I hear you whine. And so, assuming you are a logical and consistent person, you support the free movement of non-skilled workers? Dont matter if they leave does it? Lets assume you are not logical tho, how would your argumwent hold up then? Answer - it wouldnt! Skilled workes will always be recruited by richer countries in this kind of economy, and if we can effect enough change to alter that, then we can change the entire fucking world, and this whole discussion becomes irrelevant. If all you would want to change in those circumstances were a couple of immigration laws, then you would be even more right-wing than I assume you to be.

The problem with skilled workers moving over here, isnt the moving over here, its the fact that they dont go back to share any new skills they have learnt (and they very probably would learn new skills given the better facilities generally available). And why cant they go back? Bloody immigration laws, which meant that if they did, then they could probably never return. In order to go back and forth - to learn new skills etc etc - such people are obliged to get british residency, otherwise its one visit and fuck off. most people actually want to return to their country of origin (as most poles have already according to many of the reports, undoubtedly a very high number have done so), but are effectively trapped here.

& you know what group of overseas workers are the most qualified on average when they come over? Not the 'economic migrants', but the refugee's & asylum seekers. Were you to be consistent, you would be arguing for them to stay home and resist their oppressors. Indeed, you should be shouting out as you pass them in the street that they are scabs for leaving their friends and families back home.

And then theres the fact that the very fucking reason much of the third world is so fucking poor is that the west stole their bloody resources and continues to superexploit them every single day (most migrants still go to whichever country was their former colonial master). We can rob them, but god forbid they should come and try and share in some of the wealth they created!

The very term 'economic migrant' is a vile one that anyone with a touch os nouse should reject immediately anyway. It's almost funny, one day a country could be being destroyed in a war and its residents generously allowed to come here, but the day after the war ends, when the country populace are merely facing massive inescapable poverty, disease and, probably, rampant violence still, anyone wanting to leave would be a scab on their community. A country undergoing a famine - would anyone there be allowed to leave by you balders, or would they be scabbing too? Fucking scum, trying not to die n all.

I actually want a world where there has been a fucking massive redistribution of wealth so that people are not forced to migrate merely to survive, but do so because they like the climate or the music or the food of another country. Narrow minded protectionism does not help bring that world about in the slightest. In fact it does exactly the opposite.

This whole argeuement is do devoid of any substance its difficult not to just laugh at....How many words does it take to say that you think economic migaration is good and that you think anyone who disagrees with you must be a closet right winger?

 

[belboid]

Right, so you too can't actually argue against it then. Thats quite pathetic. All you have ever done is shout the same thing over and over, never actually argued a developed position on how emigration is a bad thing, just made the statement and beleived it to be enough.

If you are not willing/capable of taking part in an actual argument. what is the point of you being here?

And your attempts to re-write what I said, even in that short post (the notion that anyone disagreeing with me is a closet right-winger is a straightforward lie) are pathetic.

Until you are capable of answering points, including those specifically put to you (eg which migrants you would generously allow in) then it is utterly pointless even engaging with you.

 

[kyser_soze]

Something no one has answered me on is this:

Loads of employment agencies and suchlike set up shop in EE countries ages ago - why didn't Western European unions do the same so that they were on a similar footing to the employment agencies, and at least attempting to get the message through that undercutting local wages was only going to help the bosses blah-di-blah?

I mean it seems like a missed opportunity to me, but you know me, hopelessly out of my depth for matters of the left...

 

[tbaldwin]

Right, so you too can't actually argue against it then. Thats quite pathetic. All you have ever done is shout the same thing over and over, never actually argued a developed position on how emigration is a bad thing,

Economic Migration is a bad thing because it increases the divide between Rich and Poor.

It means that Richer countries take skilled workers from poorer countries.
This means that poorer countries are less able to develop.
It means that countries like South Africa and the Phillipines train doctors and nurses and lose them to richer coutries like the US and UK that find taking trained proffesionalls from poorer countries a cheaper option than training their own.

Some people argue that their is a trickle down effect on people sending money home,that this is more than a compensation for losing doctors and teachers and engineers....The arguement is almost beyond parody its so farcical.

The people who support economic migration are supporting policies that are catastrophic.

 

[dash]

kyser soze: A very interesting question, I'd like to know the answer too.

 

[belboid]

you're right Jezza, tho it is now being corrected. The T&G are setting up just such an agency in Poland now i believe (workers will be recruited only on approved union rates etc, so it will be more popular with the Poles as well), and are planning one for when the restrictions on Romanian etc workers are relaxed.

 

[belboid]

Economic Migration is a bad thing because it increases the divide between Rich and Poor.

It means that Richer countries take skilled workers from poorer countries.
This means that poorer countries are less able to develop.
It means that countries like South Africa and the Phillipines train doctors and nurses and lose them to richer coutries like the US and UK that find taking trained proffesionalls from poorer countries a cheaper option than training their own.

Some people argue that their is a trickle down effect on people sending money home,that this is more than a compensation for losing doctors and teachers and engineers....The arguement is almost beyond parody its so farcical.

The people who support economic migration are supporting policies that are catastrophic.

thats just restating your original position for a twohundredth time. Go to the dictionary and look up 'argument'. you could try 'fact' and 'evidence' whilst you are there too. The above is merely your belief (even if it is a belief shared by others, it is still just a belief unless you present the arguments for it, and facts behind it. you have failed to do so)

 

[kyser_soze]

I'm thinking of some words...door, stable horse, bolting, after...

 

[belboid]

true, but better late than never, and it should be in time for the new acceson states.

 

[SuburbanCasual]

you're right Jezza, tho it is now being corrected. The T&G are setting up just such an agency in Poland now i believe (workers will be recruited only on approved union rates etc, so it will be more popular with the Poles as well), and are planning one for when the restrictions on Romanian etc workers are relaxed.

One of their better ideas to be fair. After all if they're going to come in any way it might as well be on our terms. It's a sign of how weak we are to even be considering this though.

 

[tbaldwin]

thats just restating your original position for a twohundredth time. Go to the dictionary and look up 'argument'. you could try 'fact' and 'evidence' whilst you are there too. The above is merely your belief (even if it is a belief shared by others, it is still just a belief unless you present the arguments for it, and facts behind it. you have failed to do so)

OK Lets take this slowly one fact and arguement at a time?

A 1.25 Billion people are badly malnourished worldwide.

B How do you think they are effected by Economic Migration?

 

[exosculate]

Something no one has answered me on is this:

Loads of employment agencies and suchlike set up shop in EE countries ages ago - why didn't Western European unions do the same so that they were on a similar footing to the employment agencies, and at least attempting to get the message through that undercutting local wages was only going to help the bosses blah-di-blah?

I mean it seems like a missed opportunity to me, but you know me, hopelessly out of my depth for matters of the left...

Its virtually impossible to unionise agency staff.

 

[exosculate]

The A8 migrants appear to have reduced the natural rate of unemployment by making the overall workforce more flexible and more mobile, said the report. The fear of unemployment has risen among native workers, giving them less bargaining power when seeking pay rises.

Quoted from here

 

[ViolentPanda]

They just get sacked and replaced with workers drawn from the vast pool of unemployed.

So they lose the job they would have lost anyway? Hey ho.

In other words there's no reason not to organise, just a choice between dying slowly while making a profit for the boss, or dying quickly.

The worker (like all people with an ounce of something other than bat-shit between their ears) knows that he will be exploited. Unless he and his fellow workers (whether employed or unemployed) organise that exploitation will be unameliorated.

As for "just get replaced", are you seriously contending that business will cut off their noses with training costs (because, despite what you say about most jobs being "unskilled", they're actually "semi-skilled" at least), merely to spite their faces?

 

[tbaldwin]

OK Lets take this slowly one fact and arguement at a time?

A 1.25 Billion people are badly malnourished worldwide.

B How do you think they are effected by Economic Migration?

Still no answer belboid?

 

[ViolentPanda]

stop lying baldwin and actually answer the fucking points raised.

That's about as likely as Uma Thurman giving you a nosh then swallowing, I'm afraid.

Balders would much rather not exert his exalted intellect on such bagatelles as "answering the fucking points" when it can be so much more gainfully employed on sneering, smearing and generally acting like a pus-covered cockweasel.