If fascism arose again in Europe, what would the British response be?

[frogwoman]

They (the BUF) had 40, 000 members at one time tho didn't they?

 

[frogwoman]

I was about to reply to that yesterday (the "moving outside Germany" thing) but thought that someone else would probably be better than me.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The same wouldn't happen again, as there isn't the remotest chance that any far-right movement anywhere could 'do an Hitler.'

There is little or no evidence that the more serious parties would even want to.

True. If you ask the age-old question of "cui bono?", the answer is "very few, if any, of the people who really matter to the politicians: Their backers".

 

[butchersapron]

They had 40, 000 members at one time tho didn't they?

And no popular legitimacy.

 

[frogwoman]

You mean they didn't have a base/much wider "soft" support besides those 40,000, anyone who'd vote for them in elections etc? I didn't know that tbh.

 

[ViolentPanda]

They (the BUF) had 40, 000 members at one time tho didn't they?

Depends whose figures you're looking at.
Majority of BUF members were middle class. People who had cross-membership of other "between-the-wars" hard-right groupings, such as "the League of Empire Loyalists". They had a very hard job making inroads into the traditional working classes, and many of their members were little more than subscribers to a movement as opposed to "political soldiers" in the SD mold.
Plus, the BUF was as riven with factionalism as te NF was and the BNP has always been.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Fascist state has already arrived in Britain. The policing of protests and the Welfare Reform Bill aimed at the disabled are only two instances.

Sorry Frankie, but that's not fascism, it's authoritarianism of a spectacularly bullying type, but still within the (somewhat laughable) bounds of the law.

 

[frogwoman]

I remember reading about Oswald Mosley punching someone once lol.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Really crap uniforms and horrible effeciency.

That was Nazism.
Italian fascism could never have been accused of efficiency, horrible or otherwise!

 

[ViolentPanda]

the EU would nerf any potential Adolf if only with paperwork
tbf the Nazi's did fetish uniforms better than any other tyranny nobody uses soviet iconograhy for fetish sex games

No-one vanilla anyway, tovarisch.

 

[DotCommunist]

I remember reading about Oswald Mosley punching someone once lol.

did you about the time he tried to hire a jewish heavywieght boxer for a bodygaurd? when the bloke turned up and realised what was going on he banged mosely's muscle out and left. LOL

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yep, the modern BNP dwarf them in electoral terms.

Yep. It sometimes brings a wry smile to my face to think that someone that Mosley would have considered a member of the hoi-polloi managed to do better than he did, and in a less politically-favourable climate.

 

[frogwoman]

Sorry Frankie, but that's not fascism, it's authoritarianism of a spectacularly bullying type, but still within the (somewhat laughable) bounds of the law.

I hate to say it but it's not that spectacularly compared to what it could be tbh. I have a cde from turkey who told me that political parties there have to give details of who's attending every branch meeting and their meeting times and dates to the police every week. I didn't get involved in political stuff in Moldova for obvious reasons but i imagine they have similar restrictions (if they're a lot more lax about imposing them). There's still a long way to go.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And no popular legitimacy.

Despite the masses of free publicity certain elements of the print media gave them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I remember reading about Oswald Mosley punching someone once lol.

What, besides his first wife?

 

[frogwoman]

Depends whose figures you're looking at.
Majority of BUF members were middle class. People who had cross-membership of other "between-the-wars" hard-right groupings, such as "the League of Empire Loyalists". They had a very hard job making inroads into the traditional working classes, and many of their members were little more than subscribers to a movement as opposed to "political soldiers" in the SD mold.
Plus, the BUF was as riven with factionalism as te NF was and the BNP has always been.

Yep. I watched a programme with interviews of ex-members of the BUF and i was struck by how posh the people on it were! Of course there might have been a bias by the producers of the programme in finding people who were "well-spoken" etc but even so, didn't seem to be many working class people in it at all.

 

[malatesta32]

mosley failed because of his political and economic misreading and most of his 'success' was based on antisemitism (prewar) and anti 'immigrant' post war. he polled very weakly in elections and his comeback was a washout after the notting hill riots despite word of gob popularity. what's clear is that BNP are knacked and the tiny grupuscules are absorbing ex-members who are not too badly tainted by holocaust denial, prison records and violence. so why eddy butler is in the english democrats i dont know. it is these little parties that will absorb the ex-bnp vote. however, there's so many of them that they cannot organise a political bloc that wd see far right successes. have a squizz on British Democracy. we did a piece the other week on these grupuscules and more kept turning up with every 'google.' the far right in the UK have always suffered from splits and factionalism and apart from when griffin really seemed to have it together - 2009 butchers reckons - this continues to be the case. dunno if other EU countries are affected in the same way.

 

[malatesta32]

did you about the time he tried to hire a jewish heavywieght boxer for a bodygaurd? when the bloke turned up and realised what was going on he banged mosely's muscle out and left. LOL

it was kid lewis. bizarre. maybe punch drunk? also, jack spot the kray twins adversary reckoned he sorted em out in cable street!

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Really crap uniforms and horrible effeciency.

Hugo Boss puts the Fasc in Fashion.

 

[likesfish]

bit like the left then swp plus loads of others

 

[Yossarian]

Ethnic cleansing happened only in one part of eastern Europe

I think you might be able to find some Gypsies out there who disagree.

 

[LLETSA]

I think you might be able to find some Gypsies out there who disagree.

Ethnic cleansing of gypsies has happened on the same scale as Yugoslavia where? What's the death toll?

 

[Fedayn]

Ethnic cleansing of gypsies has happened on the same scale as Yugoslavia where? What's the death toll?

Not recently, ironically it's the the prejudice many 'sides' in the balkans agreed on, ie hatred and prejudice against the Roma & Sinti people.

Estimates for the attempted genocide of the Roma and Sinti people under Nazi persecution are put at between 300,000-500,000

 

[LLETSA]

Not recently, ironically it's the the prejudice many 'sides' in the balkans agreed on, ie hatred and prejudice against the Roma & Sinti people.

Estimates for the attempted genocide of the Roma and Sinti people under Nazi persecution are put at between 300,000-500,000

Maybe so, but I think Yossarian was talking about the present day and recent past, as was I.

 

[Yossarian]

Ethnic cleansing of gypsies has happened on the same scale as Yugoslavia where? What's the death toll?

If you'd said that ethnic cleansing on the same scale as Yugoslavia only happened in one place in eastern Europe - probably Yugoslavia - I wouldn't have disagreed with you.

 

[dylans]

Ethnic cleansing of gypsies has happened on the same scale as Yugoslavia where? What's the death toll?

Death is often a result of ethnic cleansing but it is not intrinsic to the definition. The UN defines it as

rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group."

and by that definition Roma communities certainly have suffered ethnic cleansing in Europe. In 2010 Sarkozy closed over 300 Roma camps and deported over a thousand people prompting protests from the EU justice commissioner. These people are all citizens of the EU and therefore entitled to live in any EU country. They were deported solely on the basis of their ethnicity. France's deportations fit the definition of ethnic cleansing in every meaningful sense. Similar policies of eviction, expulsion and persecution have also been followed in Italy, Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria AND THE UK.

EU Justice Commissioner Viviane Reding said she was appalled by the expulsions, “which gave that impression that people are being removed from a member state of the European Union just because they belong to an ethnic minority.”
This “is a situation that I had thought that Europe would not have to witness again after the second World War,” she told a news conference, adding “the commission will have no choice but to initiate infringement procedures against France.”
France could ultimately be slapped with a fine by the European Court of Justice if its expulsions are found to have breached EU law. [...]
“After 11 years of experience on the commission, I even go further: This is a disgrace,” she said. “Discrimination on the basis or ethnic origin or race has no place in Europe.“
She also harshly criticized French authorities for telling the EU commission that it was not discriminating against Roma — a claim apparently contradicted by news reports of a government letter ordering regional officials to speed up a crackdown on illegal Roma camps.
“It is my deepest regret that political assurances given by two French ministers is now openly contradicted,” Reding said.

http://www.alterpolitics.com/world/eu-france-is-engaging-in-ethnic-cleansing/

 

[LLETSA]

Death is often a result of ethnic cleansing but it is not intrinsic to the definition. The UN defines it as

and by that definition Roma communities certainly have suffered ethnic cleansing in Europe. In 2010 Sarkozy closed over 300 Roma camps and deported thousands of people prompting protests from the EU justice commissioner. These people are all citizens of the EU and therefore entitled to live in any EU country. They were deported solely on the basis of their ethnicity. Similar policies of eviction, expulsion and persecution have also been followed in Italy, Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria AND THE UK.

http://www.alterpolitics.com/world/eu-france-is-engaging-in-ethnic-cleansing/

I know this, but I was answering the various comparisons to WW2 Nazi atrocities that were being made.

 

[LLETSA]

If you'd said that ethnic cleansing on the same scale as Yugoslavia only happened in one place in eastern Europe - probably Yugoslavia - I wouldn't have disagreed with you.

I did say that, although not in those exact words.

 

[dylans]

I know this, but I was answering the various comparisons to WW2 Nazi atrocities that were being made.

I should add that the number of deportations from France was over a thousand not thousands as I first suggested. Nevertheless the process is continuing with more scheduled to be deported. (and has gone on quietly for years) Comparison's with WW11 are always problematic of course but in this case, given France's historical role in collaborating with the deportation of Jews, it has some value. Imagine the outrage if Sarkozy had deported over a thousand Jews.

 

[Yossarian]

Comparison's with WW11 are always problematic of course

If fascism does arise again in mainland Europe, comparisons with WWII will probably be the problem with the British response - because those forced resettlements aren't in the same league as Auschwitz and the leader of that 'government of national unity' is nowhere near as bad as Hitler.