If fascism arose again in Europe, what would the British response be?

[ItWillNeverWork]

There are number of countries across Europe in which the far right are becoming more popular. The French National Front, the Austrian Freedom Part etc. Given that we may be facing 15-20 years of economic depression, it is not beyond possibility that one or more countries may end up voting in an extremist government.

So what would the British response be to such an event? Prior to WW2 the far right had a prominent presence in the form of the BUF, but eventually we fell on the side of liberal democracy. Would the same happen again?

 

[SaskiaJayne]

I think the French far right has less support than it actually appears. Similar to the BNP here when they got a couple of councillors & it almost looked like they might get an MP but in practise they didn't come close. The Austrians have always been dodgy.

I guess this country would work with any democratically elected European government. WW2 only started because Hitler moved outside Germany.

 

[stuff_it]

Elect them.

 

[dilute micro]

WW2 only started because Hitler moved outside Germany.

If you're going to break one rule why not break them all?

 

[frogwoman]

They won't imo.

There are number of countries across Europe in which the far right are becoming more popular. The French National Front, the Austrian Freedom Part etc. Given that we may be facing 15-20 years of economic depression, it is not beyond possibility that one or more countries may end up voting in an extremist government.

It's a very interesting question. To be honest I think that many European countries have already got governments which, in their ideology if not their actions, would be considered to be on the far right on a political and economic scale, and many countries which are adopting racist policies in plain sight of the rest of the EU. The far right doesn't automatically equal fascism. Remember that the majority of Europe's governments before fascism appeared as a mass movement, and even in some cases, afterwards, were extremely conservative, even racist by today's standards. Homosexuality was only legalised in 1967 here, but the government we had before that was not fascist. What we are seeing IMO is the gradual abandonment of liberal democracy (but not "democracy" itself with elections etc) to coincide with declining wages, increased industrial/civil unrest etc. Actually it's always been there - given the police response during the miners' strike etc. It's just that as the booms/recoveries get shorter every time and less frequent and the recessions get longer and more severe, more state sanctioned violence, racism, etc, will increasingly become the norm. That's not the same as fascism however.

The "revolutionary" right (ie fash) poses as much of a threat to the existing order as does the revolutionary left. Fascism was a disaster for capitalism during and after the 2nd world war in terms of the destruction it caused, the wealth lost, the people/resources lost or deliberately shut out of the "market" etc. I don't think that the present British government (I'm assuming that you're talking as if the current government are still in power)? would want to encourage a fascist government in Europe which appeared to present a valid alternative to neo-liberal capitalism, especially given the fragility of the coalition. They'd probably waver between ignoring it/adopting some of the policies and condemning it from time to time.

Ultimately though I don't think that, at least in western europe, a fascist party is going to come to power. The danger from the far-right comes from the level to which these ideas have now been normalised and adopted by mainstream governments. And you certainly won't find the British government saying anything against Sarkozy and co

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

I think the French far right has less support than it actually appears. Similar to the BNP here when they got a couple of councillors & it almost looked like they might get an MP but in practise they didn't come close. The Austrians have always been dodgy.

I guess this country would work with any democratically elected European government. WW2 only started because Hitler moved outside Germany.

Sound political analysis there

 

[butchersapron]

There are number of countries across Europe in which the far right are becoming more popular. The French National Front, the Austrian Freedom Part etc. Given that we may be facing 15-20 years of economic depression, it is not beyond possibility that one or more countries may end up voting in an extremist government.

So what would the British response be to such an event? Prior to WW2 the far right had a prominent presence in the form of the BUF, but eventually we fell on the side of liberal democracy. Would the same happen again?

The British state? Civil society?

Same as last time,wait and see.

 

[LLETSA]

There are number of countries across Europe in which the far right are becoming more popular. The French National Front, the Austrian Freedom Part etc. Given that we may be facing 15-20 years of economic depression, it is not beyond possibility that one or more countries may end up voting in an extremist government.

So what would the British response be to such an event? Prior to WW2 the far right had a prominent presence in the form of the BUF, but eventually we fell on the side of liberal democracy. Would the same happen again?

The same wouldn't happen again, as there isn't the remotest chance that any far-right movement anywhere could 'do an Hitler.'

There is little or no evidence that the more serious parties would even want to.

 

[Corax]

Placards, walking from somewhere to somewhere else, and some strongly worded posts in CiF.

In this modern age, potentially all three at the same time. Technology has liberated us.

 

[butchersapron]

If fascism arose again in Europe It wouldn't happen again

Jesus christ

 

[butchersapron]

Placards, walking from somewhere to somewhere else, and some strongly worded posts in CiF.

You can fuck off an all.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

The British state? Civil society?

I'm not sure. I guess that the state will do what it needs to in preservation of its own power; if civil society poses a threat to it, then the state will follow the lead of society. On the other hand, the power of the state to mould the demands of civil society is not insignificant.

What was the attitude of the general pubic to fascism prior to the war? Did those attitudes change as a response to the war, or was the British position a consequence of an existent hostility to far-right ideas?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

The same wouldn't happen again, as there isn't the remotest chance that any far-right movement anywhere could 'do an Hitler.'

There is little or no evidence that the more serious parties would even want to.

I agree that 'doing a Hitler' (whatever that means) isn't really on the cards, but it wasn't too long ago that ethnic cleansing was happening in eastern europe. What distinguises eastern europe from other parts of the continent? Economic conditions? Social attitudes?

 

[Frankie Jack]

Fascist state has already arrived in Britain. The policing of protests and the Welfare Reform Bill aimed at the disabled are only two instances.

 

[LLETSA]

I agree that 'doing a Hitler' (whatever that means) isn't really on the cards, but it wasn't too long ago that ethnic cleansing was happening in eastern europe. What distinguises eastern europe from other parts of the continent? Economic conditions? Social attitudes?

Ethnic cleansing happened only in one part of eastern Europe, and was induced not by fascists but by established politicians who had paid lip service (and sometimes more than that) to an anti-fascist ideology for most of their lives and belonged to a ruling party that ruthlessly suppressed all expressions of ethnic nationalism. But there is no chance that any of the far-right organisations you mention, by being elected (your scenario), would be able to launch a similar programme of ethnic cleansing, and little evidence that they'd want to. There's also little chance that any of them could rule alone, as they don't have a broad enough appeal and won't develop one.

As for 'doing an Hitler,' you asked what a British government's attitude would be towards a fascist government being elected in Europe, with vague reference to what happened in WW2. Presumably, as there's no chance of the French NF, say, sending the French army into Poland, they'd deal with any such government as they deal with any other elected government in Europe. They might make some tutting noises now and then like they did with Haider. UAF types, meanwhile, would have some demonstrations on the streets of Britain and demand something or other.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Fascist state has already arrived in Britain. The policing of protests and the Welfare Reform Bill aimed at the disabled are only two instances.

Not really fascism though is it? Yes, we have lowest-common-denominator horribleness, and a political elite that despises the 'lower' classes because it can't comprehend the reality of people's lives. But Fascism?

 

[DotCommunist]

Really crap uniforms and horrible effeciency.

 

[likesfish]

the EU would nerf any potential Adolf if only with paperwork
tbf the Nazi's did fetish uniforms better than any other tyranny nobody uses soviet iconograhy for fetish sex games

 

[Louis MacNeice]

the EU would nerf any potential Adolf if only with paperwork
tbf the Nazi's did fetish uniforms better than any other tyranny nobody uses soviet iconograhy for fetish sex games

I'm willing to bet a very considerable amount of money that you are wrong about this.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

p.s. and before any smart Alec says anything, I'm not drawing on personal experience...or that of a 'friend'.

 

[Fuchs66]

nobody uses soviet iconograhy for fetish sex games

I beg to differ Tovarish!

e2a Oh bugger beaten to it, but my information was from a "friend"

 

[The39thStep]

Fascist state has already arrived in Britain. The policing of protests and the Welfare Reform Bill aimed at the disabled are only two instances.

do we need to take different steps in opposing this fascist state or should we just carry on as though we were living under a bourgeois democratic regime?

 

[likesfish]

commie perverts outed

 

[Fuchs66]

commie perverts outed

Just adds a bit of pervy-ness when you have a German girlfriend

or so I hear

and no I do not have a glass coffee table!

 

[likesfish]

Just adds a bit of pervy-ness when you have a German girlfriend

or so I hear

and no I do not have a glass coffee table!

yes but you have loads of nbc kit so the mind boggles

 

[nino_savatte]

They won't imo.

It's a very interesting question. To be honest I think that many European countries have already got governments which, in their ideology if not their actions, would be considered to be on the far right on a political and economic scale, and many countries which are adopting racist policies in plain sight of the rest of the EU. The far right doesn't automatically equal fascism. Remember that the majority of Europe's governments before fascism appeared as a mass movement, and even in some cases, afterwards, were extremely conservative, even racist by today's standards. Homosexuality was only legalised in 1967 here, but the government we had before that was not fascist. What we are seeing IMO is the gradual abandonment of liberal democracy (but not "democracy" itself with elections etc) to coincide with declining wages, increased industrial/civil unrest etc. Actually it's always been there - given the police response during the miners' strike etc. It's just that as the booms/recoveries get shorter every time and less frequent and the recessions get longer and more severe, more state sanctioned violence, racism, etc, will increasingly become the norm. That's not the same as fascism however.

The "revolutionary" right (ie fash) poses as much of a threat to the existing order as does the revolutionary left. Fascism was a disaster for capitalism during and after the 2nd world war in terms of the destruction it caused, the wealth lost, the people/resources lost or deliberately shut out of the "market" etc. I don't think that the present British government (I'm assuming that you're talking as if the current government are still in power)? would want to encourage a fascist government in Europe which appeared to present a valid alternative to neo-liberal capitalism, especially given the fragility of the coalition. They'd probably waver between ignoring it/adopting some of the policies and condemning it from time to time.

Ultimately though I don't think that, at least in western europe, a fascist party is going to come to power. The danger from the far-right comes from the level to which these ideas have now been normalised and adopted by mainstream governments. And you certainly won't find the British government saying anything against Sarkozy and co

Or Berlusconi and his coalition allies.

 

[Fuchs66]

yes but you have loads of nbc kit so the mind boggles

errrr well now you mention it......

 

[gosub]

Latest development of EU is they have to get their budgets agreed with Commission before their national parliaments, and its quite hard to do anything with spending money. UK government is supportive of this circumvention of democracy, as are most the UK media, with the principle exception of the Telegraph. In answer to thread question: Keep its head down and think of the bottom line.

 

[ViolentPanda]

There are number of countries across Europe in which the far right are becoming more popular. The French National Front, the Austrian Freedom Part etc. Given that we may be facing 15-20 years of economic depression, it is not beyond possibility that one or more countries may end up voting in an extremist government.

So what would the British response be to such an event? Prior to WW2 the far right had a prominent presence in the form of the BUF, but eventually we fell on the side of liberal democracy. Would the same happen again?

So what you actually mean is "if a variant of fascism or a manifestation of hard 'new rightism' arose again in Europe...".

The influence of the BUF wasn't exactly "prominent", either, even though it was supported financially be some of "the great and the good". Electorally and politically Mosley and his acolytes had very little influence. The "appeasement" stream of politics was far more influential than the vain cocksman ever was.

 

[butchersapron]

Yep, the modern BNP dwarf them in electoral terms.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think the French far right has less support than it actually appears. Similar to the BNP here when they got a couple of councillors & it almost looked like they might get an MP but in practise they didn't come close.

The French hard right holds entire city councils and parliamentary seats. It's a little more of a concern than the BNP.

The Austrians have always been dodgy.

The Austrians are a product of their history. Know their history and you can see why the Austrian middle classes feel comfortable voting for a Haider.

I guess this country would work with any democratically elected European government. WW2 only started because Hitler moved outside Germany.

Are you mad?

WW2 "only started" because Hitler, after successfully annexing Czechoslovakia and reintegrating various parts of the 2nd Reich into his 3rd Reich by bullying and political and military manouvering, pushed a bit too hard. He got away with five years of moving "outside Germany" before Poland, and there was a reasonable chance that Chamberlain would have forgotten British promises to Poland just like they did to Czechoslovakia. He could easily have gotten away with Poland too if he hadn't pushed quite so hard so quickly.