Hundreds of workers protest against Italians/Foreigners 'taking jobs'...

[Spion]

Unlike you I did not simply try and make out again asnd again and again that the entire workforce were reactionary BNP leaning racists - dickhead

Once again you have to invent straw men. Pathetic and shameful

 

[dennisr]

Once again you have to invent straw men. Pathetic and shameful

you don't ????

remind me again about your view of these deluded reactionaries you fell forced to oppose who have just won what they have just won

at least if I do 'invent straw men' - I am not doing it for myself - to legitimise ME

 

[dennisr]

It means defending the union from destruction of its ability to operate. Not fooling ourselves that there are not reactionary elements to the strikers stated aims just because that might be similar to something the mdeia says. That's just straighforward self-deception

How lucky and priviliged the strikers were to be saved from themselves by your timely intervention.

You are seriously delusional

I'll leave this now - you can claim' victory' given my 'unwillingness to discuss'

 

[Spion]

remind me again about your view of these deluded reactionaries you fell forced to oppose who have just won what they have just won

Here

What was the nature of the strike?

1. What were the demands? At the level of the mass of the rank and file there was a clear demand for British jobs for British workers, and placards to that effect were very visible. At the level of the strike cttee's demands this was muted somewhat into a demand that future employees on the site be 'locally skilled'.

2. There were also - to the credit of the strike - demands for equal pay and for unionisation of foreign workers. In fact, three out of the seven demands were for reaching out to the Italians. But what was actually done about that? Given the prominence of those demands you would have expected there to have been a visible presence appealing to the Italians to strike with the Lindsey workers. Maybe it did happen and the media have conspired to deny us knowledge of it. Or maybe it's just that those demands were way out of kilter with the mood of the mass of strikers?

I'm not going to be dishonest, I did oppose it, on the basis that the core demands regarding future employment were for preferential treatment for British workers. That said, if I was part of an organisation or in a different union I would have organised to visit the strikers and talk to them about those concerns. If I had been present and gone along with the strike I would fought tooth and nail to change the nationalist nature of its key demand regarding future employment at the site and against the BJ4BW sentiment among the mass of strikers. I would have argued that the key task was to emphasise the demands for jobs and equal rights for ALL workers by practically and very visibly reaching out to the Italian workers to win them over to strike also and to ensure they are employed at equal rates. That the 'socialists' who have been involved directly in this strike have failed to do that is to their discredit.

Which of its demands has the strike won?
The strike demanded:

No victimisation of workers taking solidarity action.
All workers in UK to be covered by the NAECI agreement.
Union-controlled registering of unemployed and local skilled union members with nominating rights as work becomes available.
Government and employer investment in proper training/apprenticeships for the new generation of construction workers. Fight for a future for young people
All immigrant labour to be unionised.
Trade union assistance for immigrant workers, via interpreters, to give right of access to trade union advice - to promote active integrated trade union members.
Build links with construction trade unions on the continent

So far, what I can see that the strike has won is 102 news jobs. That's a good thing, but it doesn't match with what was demanded. You could say that that's a result of the BJ4BW workers demand, although modified - by the bosses as a result of not wating to break discrimination law and becuase of existing contractual arrangements with IREM? - as the end result is that the Italians also have their jobs intact.

Maybe someone knows whether any of the strike's *stated* demands have been won?

 

[dennisr]

Here

Except that was AFTERWARDS ie in RETROSPECT - sorry a bit late for those on the picket line - you know, the ones who had to be saved from themselves

tara (or should i say tara, media lackey ? )

 

[tangentlama]

Except that was AFTERWARDS ie in RETROSPECT - sorry a bit late for those on the picket line - you know, the ones who had to be saved from themselves

tara (or should i say tara, media lackey ? )

Here's what 'e said before:

I stand by these workers in the sense that I think their anger is justified at redundancy and attacks on working conditions, but I do not support a strike aimed at favouring British over other workers.
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8711289&postcount=1376

It looks like conditinal support; conditional on an internationalist outlook, rather than a BJFBW/LJFLW stance.

LJFLW: "What will it take to get you back to work?', to which he replied, "I believe the protesters would like to have access to the jobs and when all local labour and all local skilled labour has been exhausted then they should move further afield. The last resort should be to employ European labour."
" from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7867207.stm

And this doesn't look good to European Unions (CGIL already said it looks like ugly nationalism) and if there's any danger European Unionists might take up this line, and divide w/c on nationalist lines then what impact on Brits working in Europe? The contract/agencies will just try to bring in non-Europeans to work, won't they! We don't live in a vacuum, so how can you seriously suggest (to dennisr) that BJFBW/LJFLW won't create a chain reaction when unemployment in Europe is running higher than it is in UK?!

 

[tangentlama]

Except that was AFTERWARDS ie in RETROSPECT - sorry a bit late for those on the picket line - you know, the ones who had to be saved from themselves

tara (or should i say tara, media lackey ? )

You are making a tit of yourself. Spion's views aren't those of 'the enemy', or 'the bosses/media lackey' *sigh* Looks to me like he's trying to protect against a nationalist chain-reaction by other European w/c.

 

[Spion]

"The proposed deal gives British workers 102 jobs out of a total of 195 on the bulk of the new desulphurisation plant contract, including 67 skilled positions — welders, electricians and platers.

It does not involve any Italian redundancies as only 100 posts have so far gone to the foreign workers based on a hostel barge moored in Grimsby docks.

The British jobs will come from the second tranche, which would almost certainly have gone to Italian staff had the row not erupted. But no contracts have been issued by the Italian subcontractor IREM for the 95 posts still to be filled"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/feb/04/tradeunions

If that's the case BJ4BW was successful as a strike aim. It's good that people get jobs but someone else that was set to get them has lost that chance and the end result is the w/c has fought for crumbs from the boss's table rather than fighting for jobs for all. A zero-sum game has been played

 

[tangentlama]

So what of Shaws, the original employer who laid off workers b4 the winter holidays, and failed to get the contract which IREM won?
Do they use a core workforce like IREM?

Shaws have barely been mentioned at all. Do they employ non-UK residents? I don't know much about them.

 

[Spion]

So what of Shaws, the original employer who laid off workers b4 the winter holidays, and failed to get the contract which IREM won?

Mmmmmm, why haven't they been a target here?

 

[glenquagmire]

Because they pay NAECI terms and conditions?

 

[Fuchs66]

Mmmmmm, why haven't they been a target here?

because they dont speak funny?

 

[Spion]

Because they pay NAECI terms and conditions?

Not to the workers they made redundant they don't

 

[tangentlama]

Mmmmmm, why haven't they been a target here?

Dunno. Presumably it's Shaws shop stewards who informed the men that IREM had got the contract.

Could it be Shaws who also blacklisted that former shop steward and SP party member who I think was the scots bloke interviewed in that clip above (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7867207.stm) and whose reinstatement is mentioned on the SP generated list of demands. In that same clip, is it Kenny Ward, Unite shop steward, who says European labour should be employed as last resort?

 

[ymu]

If that's the case BJ4BW was successful as a strike aim. It's good that people get jobs but someone else has lost them and the end result is the w/c has fought for crumbs from the boss's table rather than fighting for jobs for all.

Yeah, because this dispute has arisen in isolation. There's no history, no context, and the slogan you object to is not a Brown soundbite being thrown back in his face by wildcat strikers who are fed up with nothing fucking happening to prevent the continual erosion of their rights.

Unions have been complaining that court interpretations of the EU Posted Workers Directive effectively prevent unions from taking industrial action to stop foreign workers being employed in the UK at low wages. For more than a year, the unions, notably the engineering union Unite, have been campaigning to persuade either the EU or Britain to overturn the rulings.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/feb/03/trade-unions-lindsey-strikes

You have a valid point, but you only seem to be interested in using it to undermine the strikers. Why? Is it just a stupid testosterone thing, or do you really think that the mistakes made by some individuals in an industrial dispute that has been brewing for months are sufficiently important for you to devote more or less every word of every single post you've put on this thread to denouncing them rather than supporting the strike.

 

[snadge]

Not to the workers they made redundant they don't

It isn't Shaw's contract, when a situation like this arises on site usually the paid off workers jump ship to the other contract and whichever company has it with no change in pay and conditions and yes Shaws pay NAECI rates.

 

[tangentlama]

Solidarietá, non Segragazione!

Yeah, because this dispute has arisen in isolation. There's no history, no context, and the slogan you object to is not a Brown soundbite being thrown back in his face by wildcat strikers who are fed up with nothing fucking happening to prevent the continual erosion of their rights.

Are you supportive of Israeli unions who refuse to work alongside Palestinians and didn't allow them to join their unions and get a decent wage-the same wage-rate as Israeli-Jews were being paid? (This was ongoing issue for decades, until Pals were squeezed out of Israeli workforce and now work illegally for peanuts). Are you pro IJJFIJW (Israeli-Jewish Jobs for Israeli-Jewish workers) ? DO you understand what the effect will be if all European Unionists decide to adopt a similar stance to BJFBW ?

Do you realise that this BJFBW is an ultra-nationalist stance, and although Brown is responsible for reviving a National-Front slogan, it is a trap that we all would prefer could be navigated swiftly away from before solidarity with Euro Unionists becomes impossible. This slogan BJFBW serves to disunite the European w/c - it is an trap set by Brown in Sept 2007, and basically is a spectacular own-goal. No-one here blames the striking workforce for rising to Brown's Bait - they are just pointing out that it's going to cause harm if demands aren't refined and consideration of state-of-play in European states isn't considered. Solidarietá, non Segragazione!

 

[Spion]

Is it just a stupid testosterone thing, or do you really think that the mistakes made by some individuals in an industrial dispute that has been brewing for months are sufficiently important for you to devote more or less every word of every single post you've put on this thread to denouncing them rather than supporting the strike.

I do think that those 'mistakes' have to be dealt with. This might not be the last of these strikes and it's got to be a good thing that they are made as internationalist as possible in future.

Re denouncing rather than supporting - even if I had supported this strike I would have said the same thing about the nationalist character of some of the demands.

And please, the 'testosterone' reference. Imagine someone made reference to your hormones rather than dealing with your argument at face value. It'd be a low trick wouldn't it?

 

[treelover]

Indymedia has not covered this, only two posts put up as well, a big fail for them and perhaps indicative of the wider 'activist' movement.

 

[where to]

Brussels signals rethink on labour rules

Brussels on Wednesday waded into the UK’s industrial dispute over employing foreign workers, promising to take a closer look at how European Union rules governing the free movement of labour are affecting employees.

In a move that could hamper employers’ ability to undercut local wage levels by hiring workers from cheaper EU member states, Vladimir Spidla, the commissioner for employment, said the European Commission was “ready to study and to develop any new measures necessary to face a changing world”.

Laws governing the free movement of labour in the EU have come under scrutiny following a series of strikes at UK oil refineries, sparked by the hiring of foreign workers in areas hit by rising unemployment.

In an apparent concession to opponents of the current regime, Mr Spidla said he had commissioned a series of studies “to better understand the impact of the directive on the ground and the consequences of European court rulings”. People close to the Commission said that a rewriting of the framework law – the “posting of foreign workers” directive – was not likely but that member states could be pushed into interpreting the laws in a way more favourable to local employees.

The move came as the dispute at the centre of the affair was nearing resolution, with shop stewards at the Lindsey refinery poised to recommend an end to the illegal strike on Thursday.

Under a deal mediated by Acas, the UK’s conciliation body, about 100 jobs will be made available to British workers, though union leaders insisted those positions did not replace the foreign contractors who sparked the dispute.

“No Italian worker will lose their job as a result of this deal,” said Derek Simpson, joint general secretary of Unite, one of the unions involved.

Paul Kenny, general secretary of the GMB, another union, said it wanted the UK government to amend legislation “to correct the botched implementation into British law of the EU 1996 Posted Workers Directive”.

One of the unions’ grievances, which Brussels may focus on, is the impact of a series of rulings at the European Court of Justice in Strasbourg, which have weakened local workers’ protection.

“There’s not a lot the Commission can do beyond asking states to look again at the implementation,” said Stefan Corbanie, a Brussels-based lawyer at Eversheds. He warned that further erosion of free movement principles would come up against clauses in European treaties.

The Commission was partly responding to vocal criticism of the directive in the European parliament where a contingent of left-leaning members have threatened to derail the confirmation process of the next European Commission.

The Party of European Socialists, expected to form a large bloc in spring European elections, said “we are not joining this campaign but we are certainly not ruling it out”.

In the UK, Gordon Brown, prime minister, welcomed the publication of employers’ guidelines insisting that local workers should be considered for future projects and defended his use of the slogan “British jobs for British workers”. Mr Brown said he wanted UK workers to be trained and considered for jobs, but said he would continue to fight protectionism. David Cameron, Conservative leader, said Mr Brown should be “ashamed” of stirring up nationalistic sentiment.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/640ec03a-f306-11dd-abe6-0000779fd2ac.html

 

[Talkie Toaster]

Indymedia has not covered this, only two posts put up as well, a big fail for them and perhaps indicative of the wider 'activist' movement.

I take it you decided to ignore the questions of a few pages ago then. Oh well.

 

[tangentlama]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/640ec03a-f306-11dd-abe6-0000779fd2ac.html

Very good - prospects of Europe wide strikes must have made them v. twitchy. Not over hopeful yet though. Nothing can beat cross-Unionist solidarity and that seems to be of paramount importance.

Of course, if future coordinated strikes are broken by 'imported' Indian agency/contract-labour, then are Europe's (incl. UK) w/c ready for the twists and turns that these companies will pull on the workforce?

Tory-leader is being too soft. BJFBW is ultra-nationalist. That needs to be discouraged to prevent workers alienating non-UK workers on nationalist grounds.

 

[belboid]

excellent article by seamus milne in today's guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/feb/05/strikes-foreign-workers

 

[tangentlama]

excellent article by seamus milne in today's guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/feb/05/strikes-foreign-workers

Yes, very good article.

I'm hoping that we're watching the unfolding of a new chapter in Internationalist labour relations between various workers' unions.
How about you?

 

[belboid]

that'd be nice.

Some things are clear tho, despite having a crap initial slogan, the strikers have won concessions on ensuring that all work is at union rates, the laval and viking rulings are finally in the news, no foreign workers have lost their jobs. Not too bad for a few days work

 

[tangentlama]

that'd be nice.

Some things are clear tho, despite having a crap initial slogan, the strikers have won concessions on ensuring that all work is at union rates, the laval and viking rulings are finally in the news, no foreign workers have lost their jobs. Not too bad for a few days work

They made mistakes in the beginning, but showed their capable handling by moving away from their initial angry reaction. I think the majority both in UK and abroad will be able to see this.

The fash were very opportunistic to join in, yet quickly marched away, for which we're all thankful for. Still, they're going to be stirring it in other European countries, so that's a message to be "en guard", d'accord?

It's quite new, and I think that the constructive criticisms made from many quarters can only make the movement stronger.

Now I think one thing to be explored is the companies involved. Does Alstom hate French unionists already? I think so. More exploration on the contract/agency problems.

How do EDF, RWE, ConocoPhillips, and other large European companies operate in UK?
Lets explore further the way they operate in other European states (and non-European states too).

Also, I don't want Brown exploiting unemployment fears and selling the public including the construction workforce his crazy nuclear package when CHP units are guaranteed to be more efficient, quicker to build, and safer to run and maintain.

 

[TomPaine]

BJFBW is ultra-nationalist.

Please... honestly. I don't think Brown used that phrase because the NF had onced used it. I'm sure plenty of other people have said that phrase as well who aren't "ultra-Nationalists".

Ultra-Nationalism bring to mind Mosely and the Black shirts goose steeping on mass towards Cable Street, not a couple of Union Jack flags and a few badly made PC printed banners.

Try and put things into perspective, "Ultra-Nationalist" honestly makes you sound like you are on some sort of witch hunt. Direct that towards the BNP and NF by all means, but I wouldn't say that slogan when taken in context is "Ultra-Nationalist".

 

[chilango]

They made mistakes in the beginning, but showed their capable handling by moving away from their initial angry reaction. I think the majority both in UK and abroad will be able to see this.

The fash were very opportunistic to join in, yet quickly marched away, for which we're all thankful for. Still, they're going to be stirring it in other European countries, so that's a message to be "en guard", d'accord?

It's quite new, and I think that the constructive criticisms made from many quarters can only make the movement stronger.

Now I think one thing to be explored is the companies involved. Does Alstom hate French unionists already? I think so. More exploration on the contract/agency problems.

How do EDF, RWE, ConocoPhillips, and other large European companies operate in UK?
Lets explore further the way they operate in other European states (and non-European states too).

Also, I don't want Brown exploiting unemployment fears and selling the public including the construction workforce his crazy nuclear package when CHP units are guaranteed to be more efficient, quicker to build, and safer to run and maintain.

good post

 

[tangentlama]

Please... honestly. I don't think Brown used that phrase because the NF had onced used it. I'm sure plenty of other people have said that phrase as well who aren't "ultra-Nationalists".

Ultra-Nationalism bring to mind Mosely and the Black shirts goose steeping on mass towards Cable Street, not a couple of Union Jack flags and a few badly made PC printed banners.

Try and put things into perspective, "Ultra-Nationalist" honestly makes you sound like you are on some sort of witch hunt. Direct that towards the BNP and NF by all means, but I wouldn't say that slogan when taken in context is "Ultra-Nationalist".

Sorry Tom, I do feel I am correct on this (and being ultra-protective, but hear me out).

Although I agree that with this strike, angry workforce have used on it because of Brown having made promises which he couldn't possibly keep and that they're not ultranationalist, that doesn't stop the slogan being ultranationalist and I am not afraid to say so. Just like the strikers weren't afraid to see how damaging that slogan was, and how it trapped them and led to them being called xenophobes/anti-foreigner/nationalist etc.

I am coming at this from years at watching and commenting on the work/attitudes of ultranationalists in Israel. Basically Israeli workforce is now isolated and controlled by politicians and military whose brand is crisis and who use fear to keep them in their neoliberal hell. I don't want that to happen in UK or Europe.

 

[dennisr]

You are making a tit of yourself. Spion's views aren't those of 'the enemy', or 'the bosses/media lackey' *sigh* Looks to me like he's trying to protect against a nationalist chain-reaction by other European w/c.

Why are you so desperate to defend him and his 'conditional support'.

How would you feel about this level of 'support' - endless condemnation and reinforcement of medias lies?

His trying to 'protect against nationalistic chain-reaction' was doing just that

I gave up taking the pseudo-'left' idiot seriously a while ago - if you can't see tongue in cheek comments for what they are...

Your later post (1466) was spot on - its covers the real issues both those workers and plenty of others face