Hundreds of Post Office workers ‘vindicated’ by High Court ruling over faulty Post Office IT system

[two sheds]

Tbf all witness statements go through a process of editing. The first draft is rarely the one that goes into the trial bundle.

Not to change their meaning or remove admissions of guilt though, which editing those statements seems to have done. That's pretty well lying under oath.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Not to change their meaning or remove admissions of guilt though, which editing those statements seems to have done. That's pretty well lying under oath.

It won't be long before they're reduced to running endorsements on posters from Paul Ross: “The Horizon system...used by the Post Office...is quite possibly...the greatest...in the...world...FIVE STARS TEN OUT OF TEN THUMBS UP!”

 

[Thesaint]

I wonder in future if a jury is faced with evidence originating from any computer application this will be consider untrustworthy, and they would be less likely to convict. Particularly HMRC vs Xxx cases.

 

[weltweit]

It seems a bit wrong to me that recent action was galvanised by the TV drama.

There was already plenty of evidence of the abuse of sub postmasters.

 

[stdP]

I wonder in future if a jury is faced with evidence originating from any computer application this will be consider untrustworthy, and they would be less likely to convict. Particularly HMRC vs Xxx cases.

Not until the law changes; UK statute basically has the assumption written in to it that, unless there's evidence to the contrary, that the "machinery" is working correctly, and thus it's up to the defence to prove that the computer is malfunctioning.

Update law on computer evidence to avoid Horizon repeat, ministers urged

Critics say assumption in English and Welsh law that computers are ‘reliable’ reverses usual burden of proof in criminal cases

www.theguardian.com

 

[Thesaint]

Not until the law changes; UK statute basically has the assumption written in to it that, unless there's evidence to the contrary, that the "machinery" is working correctly, and thus it's up to the defence to prove that the computer is malfunctioning.

Update law on computer evidence to avoid Horizon repeat, ministers urged

Critics say assumption in English and Welsh law that computers are ‘reliable’ reverses usual burden of proof in criminal cases

www.theguardian.com

The law might say that, but I wonder if a jury who has seen the news recently may view it differently now though.

 

[Serge Forward]

The law might say that, but I wonder if a jury who has seen the news recently may view it differently now though.

Especially if the system was provided by Fujitsu.

 

[alex_]

Especially if the system was provided by Fujitsu.

All computer systems have defects

 

[Serge Forward]

All computer systems have defects

True.

 

[Thesaint]

All computer systems have defects

True. Any equipment can too. I mean who checks speed cameras are accurate? Unless it's a neutral 3rd party checks how would anyone even know?

Often the media run stories of people being fined for going into a bus lane in a town they've never been to, because the plate recognition camera got it misread the plate.

 

[equationgirl]

Tbf all witness statements go through a process of editing. The first draft is rarely the one that goes into the trial bundle.

But the PO witnesses got completely battered by the judge about the contents of their statements

Yes I understand that. But these were not edited in that way, as best I can tell from the reporting, these were edited tto obscure the truth i.e. lie.

 

[Chz]

I mean who checks speed cameras are accurate?

Number one way to get out of a speeding ticket is to demand to see the paperwork for when the radar was last calibrated. It doesn't work often, because they are wise to these ways and mostly keep the paperwork in order, but it still gets people off often enough to be the first thing to try.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Number one way to get out of a speeding ticket is to demand to see the paperwork for when the radar was last calibrated. It doesn't work often, because they are wise to these ways and mostly keep the paperwork in order, but it still gets people off often enough to be the first thing to try.

Number one way to get out of a speeding ticket is to not drive like a bellend in the first place.

 

[cupid_stunt]

It seems a bit wrong to me that recent action was galvanised by the TV drama.

There was already plenty of evidence of the abuse of sub postmasters.

It doesn't surprise me that much TBH, whilst there's been news coverage over years, it's just been occasional reports amongst many on a given day, and that doesn't make a major impact, the first Panorama programme in 2015 caused more of a outrage and was partly the reason why it ended-up in the High Court back in Dec. 2019, after which there was another Panorama show covering the victory.

I think after that High Court victory most people assumed it would have all been settled back in 2020, personally whilst being aware the public enquiry was still ongoing into what went wrong, I certainly assumed individuals would have been compensated years ago.

Whereas a 3-hour drama at peak viewing times not only attracted a large audience, but kept them gripped as it covered the story from the start to the present day, focusing in on individual people's lives and their suffering at the hands of the post office, something people could relate too so much more, the public outrage and the fact it was still ongoing turned it into a major news story, that in turn forced the hands of the government to sit up and take more notice.

 

[Chz]

Number one way to get out of a speeding ticket is to not drive like a bellend in the first place.

Well then how'd you get the speeding ticket you need to get out of then?

 

[scifisam]

It doesn't surprise me that much TBH, whilst there's been news coverage over years, it's just been occasional reports amongst many on a given day, and that doesn't make a major impact, the first Panorama programme in 2015 caused more of a outrage and was partly the reason why it ended-up in the High Court back in Dec. 2019, after which there was another Panorama show covering the victory.

I think after that High Court victory most people assumed it would have all been settled back in 2020, personally whilst being aware the public enquiry was still ongoing into what went wrong, I certainly assumed individuals would have been compensated years ago.

Whereas a 3-hour drama at peak viewing times not only attracted a large audience, but kept them gripped as it covered the story from the start to the present day, focusing in on individual people's lives and their suffering at the hands of the post office, something people could relate too so much more, the public outrage and the fact it was still ongoing turned it into a major news story, that in turn forced the hands of the government to sit up and take more notice.

Yeah. It basically means it covers all the media formats, not actually just one, due to reviews, chat online etc.

And older generations become more aware of it, and they're the ones politicians care about.

The casting was also brilliant - lots of actors that people like and will watch even if it's about something that sounds serious - and they, somehow, kept the tone light enough in some parts (the actual lighting was probably part of it - quite bright and light for the most part) for it not to feel like a worthy slog. So it wasn't just a TV drama, it was a very well-made one, shown at a time of year when everyone's watching loads of TV.

 

[GarveyLives]

Disturbing (broadcast on Channel 4 news this evening):

​

 

[Wilf]

Disturbing (broadcast on Channel 4 news this evening):

​

I'm still saying nobody from Fujitsu/Post Office will serve time. That's not because there isn't massive/growing amounts of evidence of criminal level guilt, it's just, well, senior execs never serve time. Even when there's (highly opportunistic) political backing for prosecutions, even when those senior execs will look ridiculous when they say 'I don't think I saw the full version of the document... I was assured that... my understanding was...', they won't do time. I mean, she's not going to get prosecuted, she was in Theresa May and Boris Johnson's Cabinet Office.

One (semi) amusing snippet that I hadn't twigged before, she apparently came close to becoming Bishop of London:

On 10 January 2024, BBC News reported sources told them that, around 2017 when Richard Chartres's tenure as Bishop of London was drawing to a close, Vennells had been interviewed for the post and reached the final shortlist of three.[13]

That would have been around the time the 555 subpostmasters brought their successful group claim against the Post Office, headed by Vennels. Way to go C of E! Still, she was appointed to the Cabinet Office and got a CBE 2 years after that.

Poor old Corbyn, he just didn't apologise enough to the people who had stitched him up.

 

[mx wcfc]

Concentration Camp guard defence deployed today by one PO investigator

Post Office: I was only doing my job, says investigator

Robert Daily told an inquiry into the Post Office scandal that he did not accept personal responsibility.

www.bbc.co.uk

In terms of people doing time, I sort of want these people to go down. But only of Vennels does too.

 

[WouldBe]

Often the media run stories of people being fined for going into a bus lane in a town they've never been to, because the plate recognition camera got it misread the plate.

My dad once got a speeding ticket from a camera in Carlisle yet could prove he clocked back into work in Matlock only 10 minutes later. Funnily enough he got off.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

My dad once got a speeding ticket from a camera in Carlisle yet could prove he clocked back into work in Matlock only 10 minutes later. Funnily enough he got off.

i'd have said that proves he was speeding...

 

[DaveCinzano]

i'd have said that proves he was speeding...

Clear cut case of legitimate self-optometry

 

[WouldBe]

i'd have said that proves he was speeding...

He was in a car not a fighter jet.

 

[two sheds]

Got someone else to clock in for him eh? Clever :taps nose:

 

[equationgirl]

Post office Investigator still convinced of the guilt of a postmaster despite his conviction being overturned by Scottish courts:

Former Post Office investigator insists cleared Horizon IT victim was guilty

Raymond Grant says his ‘time was limited’ after being forced to appear at inquiry over minimum witness statement

www.theguardian.com

The article makes for somewhat terrifying reading.

 

[gosub]

Post office Investigator still convinced of the guilt of a postmaster despite his conviction being overturned by Scottish courts:

Former Post Office investigator insists cleared Horizon IT victim was guilty

Raymond Grant says his ‘time was limited’ after being forced to appear at inquiry over minimum witness statement

www.theguardian.com

The article makes for somewhat terrifying reading.

I do hope the the Scottish courts drag him in so he can explain his contempt of their dcision. If only cos dead men can't sue

 

[equationgirl]

I do hope the the Scottish courts drag him in so he can explain his contempt of their dcision. If only cos dead men can't sue

He apparently chose not to fulfil his legal obligation to file a witness statement with the enquiry until forced to. His excuse 'i was focusing on my current job', a job with the Salvation Army because 'my time was limited'.

Apparently the sheriff officers arriving on her doorstep 'focused hismibd' on preparing a witness statement and he submitted the minimum possible 2 pages.

He claims he was deceived by the Post Office.

 

[izz]

Post office Investigator still convinced of the guilt of a postmaster despite his conviction being overturned by Scottish courts:

Former Post Office investigator insists cleared Horizon IT victim was guilty

Raymond Grant says his ‘time was limited’ after being forced to appear at inquiry over minimum witness statement

www.theguardian.com

The article makes for somewhat terrifying reading.

Unfortunately given the total and complete failure of Horizon to record transactions correctly it is possible that a number of post office staff were, indeed, defrauding the post office, we will never know but frankly, if they get away with it in this instance, more power to them I say (other opinions are available ). This investigator though, treated the recent proceedings with complete contempt, and should have a book thrown at him as well.

Funny innit, how only the little people commit crimes worthy of jail time.

 

[equationgirl]

The Post Office must lose the right to investigate any suspected frauds after this.

 

[gosub]

Unfortunately given the total and complete failure of Horizon to record transactions correctly it is possible that a number of post office staff were, indeed, defrauding the post office, we will never know but frankly, if they get away with it in this instance, more power to them I say (other opinions are available ). This investigator though, treated the recent proceedings with complete contempt, and should have a book thrown at him as well.

Funny innit, how only the little people commit crimes worthy of jail time.

Funny how the one he claims was incorrectly pardoned is dead ..coz you can't slander the dead