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Hundreds of Post Office workers ‘vindicated’ by High Court ruling over faulty Post Office IT system

Exactly, it's the willful coverup with union assistance that has led to this.

On another note, if PO Submasters were making up the balances with their own money were there another group taking money out where the balance was positive?

This is a strange one


No idea whether he did it but fucking iffy evidence there. Also accusations that he killed her because she was going to leave him though.



I'd imagine so, just from that story:

The murder guy quoted in two shed's link says he did take money out when the balance was positive. There definitely were times when it was positive when I worked with this system. The point I took from my own experience was that it NEVER added up at the end of the day. Luckily for the bloke who ran our PO, it was never a big amount of money either way. He never put money in or out, but I assure you in the few weeks I worked and trained there, it never once came to £0.00 at the end of the day. It was not a busy PO.

Separate subject two sheds, as the guy in question makes clear, but the circumstantial evidence against him is pretty strong. Things just don't happen the way he claimed (robber killing his wife? why?). And he was massively in debt and his marriage was in trouble. Separate story, except if he is just jumping on the Horizon bandwagon, that's really shit. Of course, on the off chance he's innocent, that's really shit too.
 
The murder guy quoted in two shed's link says he did take money out when the balance was positive. There definitely were times when it was positive when I worked with this system. The point I took from my own experience was that it NEVER added up at the end of the day. Luckily for the bloke who ran our PO, it was never a big amount of money either way. He never put money in or out, but I assure you in the few weeks I worked and trained there, it never once came to £0.00 at the end of the day. It was not a busy PO.

Separate subject two sheds, as the guy in question makes clear, but the circumstantial evidence against him is pretty strong. Things just don't happen the way he claimed (robber killing his wife? why?). And he was massively in debt and his marriage was in trouble. Separate story, except if he is just jumping on the Horizon bandwagon, that's really shit. Of course, on the off chance he's innocent, that's really shit too.
Can't not have grounds for appeal
 
The postmasters sent to prison were presumably caught in the trap where they couldn't say they weren't guilty because that would prevent any time off their sentence?

David Lammy was talking to a woman who was advised to bleed guilty, as was assumed she was unlikely to get a custodial sentence. she of course had done nothing illegal. But pled guilty because of this advice. And got jailed anyway.:mad:
 
I think IT rag The Register's been covering this since around 2013 or so, not long after I remember reading about it first in Private Eye (IIRC the same journalist who'd done the pieces for Computer Weekly) - IT bods there have been having a field day. One of them had been browsing through one of the document dumps which included some of the Horizon source code, here's fun snippet for starters:

Code:
Public Function ReverseSign(d)

If d < 0 Then d = Abs(d)

Else d = d - (d * 2)

End

If ReverseSign = d

End Function

If you've not got a scooby what this is for... you're not far wrong. It's a function designed to turn a number in to a negative number... here we're multiplying the input (let's say 500) by two (to give 1000) and subtracting that from the input (500 - 1000 = -500). But as anyone with a rudimentary understanding of arithmetic will tell you, and as far as I can the "The Right Way to do so, is that you can turn any number in to a negative one simply by multiplying by -1.

Even more egregious is the seeming lack of atomic transactions and larger ACID compliance;
An example of an atomic transaction is a monetary transfer from bank account A to account B. It consists of two operations, withdrawing the money from account A and saving it to account B. Performing these operations in an atomic transaction ensures that the database remains in a consistent state, that is, money is neither lost nor created if either of those two operations fails.
Atomic transactions are so absurdly standard in any database system, especially financial ones, that it's difficult to understand why any system built since the 70s - especially a giant, distributed financial database - might not support them. I don't think it's been proven yet so take my words with a generous helping of sodium chloride, but a great deal of the discrepancies experienced by the sub-postmasters absolutely smack of the system as a whole not being ACID-compliant, with some transactions (or various parts of transactions) occurring more than once, and some transactions seemingly not happening at all.

But that brings us to the most unforgivable technical aspect of this whole farrago - the fact that all the behind-the-scenes changes done by Fujitsu to cover up these discrepancies were seemingly un-audited and appeared to be done under the same credentials as the PO staff. This is so utterly boneheaded as to defy understanding - normally in most institutions great, great pains are taken to make sure the person or process making the transaction is identifiable. If someone like an IT admin is deliberately impersonating someone else (unlikely to actually be needed in usual practice but might be useful for testing a bug, say) - especially on the live system - there'll be a record of exactly when they were doing the impersonations, the source address of every user login and every associated transaction, so that it becomes relatively simple to disambiguate transactions done by "User A", versus transactions done by "User B impersonating User A". From the sounds of things, there was no such facility built in to Horizon - the Fujitsu workers appeared to be remotely logged in to the same terminals as the SPMs themselves, and seemingly were able to impersonate them transparently.

This is so amateurish it'd make even a rookie coder* blush, because it's so obviously open to abuse. You could quite easily have a crook turning the wheels at Fujitsu decide to dump £100 a week out of every PO in to a bank account of their choosing if they really wanted to, with little risk of redress. There doesn't seem to have been anything in the system to stop that from happening or, more importantly, any record to show that it ever did happen by anyone other than the PO staff. I do have to wonder if this was just stupidity on the part of the designers/developers, or an expedient managerial decision to make sure that the Fujitsu changes were essentially invisible so they couldn't be pulled up on malfunctions or malfeasance at a later date. For now I'm being charitable and saying the former but, to paraphrase Clarke, sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice.

* Disclaimer: I'm not a coder myself, I'm a sysadmin; I have a passing knowledge of programming but I wouldn't have the first clue where to start on how to design and write something like Horizon - that's what people with systems engineering and computer science degrees and decades of experience are for. But I have spent most of my career in and around financial systems of one sort of another and have done my fair share of hunting the buggy transaction or finding the audit trail for who did what to what. If I'd have ratcheted my eyebrow up half a millimetre every time I read something about Horizon which came across as "Well, that sounds fucking stupid" my Roger Moore caricature would be visible from low earth orbit.

This XKCD remains particularly apposite, even if it is ostensibly about electronic voting:
voting_software.png


Does it really take a docu-drama before government does the right thing these days?

It certainly looks that way doesn't it? I really do think a lot of this is down to the looming general election and the government trying to claw back popularity by any means necessary. Although as many, many others have pointed out, there's been plenty of other disasters that have received docu-drama treatment in the very recent past that still go manifestly ignored. Not that I'm trying to belittle the plight of the sub-postmasters and the utter cuntery of POL/Fujitsu but I think it's largely a measure of perceived distance. Thousands destitute, turfed out on the street, denied access to medical and mental health, unable to pay for food? I'm Alright Jack, and it was probably their own fault anyway - they should just man up and get a job. Hundreds burned to death in some tower? Well they were all in Kensington and therefore rich bastards, who cares. But old Mrs. Goggins from the village shop wasn't a thief and a cheat and a liar after all? Well, now I feel bad about taking a shit through her letterbox and setting fire to her cat.
 
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I think IT rag The Register's been covering this since around 2013 or so, not long after I remember reading about it first in Private Eye (IIRC the same journalist who'd done the pieces for Computer Weekly) - IT bods there have been having a field day. One of them had been browsing through one of the document dumps which included some of the Horizon source code, here's fun snippet for starters:

Code:
Public Function ReverseSign(d)

If d < 0 Then d = Abs(d)

Else d = d - (d * 2)

End

If ReverseSign = d

End Function

If you've not got a scooby what this is for... you're not far wrong. It's a function designed to turn a number in to a negative number... here we're multiplying the input (let's say 500) by two (to give 1000) and subtracting that from the input (500 - 1000 = -500). But as anyone with a rudimentary understanding of arithmetic will tell you, and as far as I can the "The Right Way to do so, is that you can turn any number in to a negative one simply by multiplying by -1.
The first line of that makes a negative a positive if d is negative to start with. :hmm:
 
This XKCD remains particularly apposite, even if it is ostensibly about electronic voting:
voting_software.png
Reminds me of what was a really good night out years back . Me done a fair in aviation at the time. An anesthetist who really got on with and my ex Mrs and few of her code monkey. All them decent people. Dazza (the anethetist) was explaining statistically how often people might die from what he did. None of the code monkeys could get their head round it which I found mental..shit can , and does happen so you have a gaffer and play within rules the gaffer respects.

A bit steampunk but anything else is bollocks
 
who couldn't possibly sympathise with this:
Fixing Horizon bugs would have been too costly, Post Office inquiry told

watched the docudrama the other day and despite being well aware of the case for years the whole individual stories side made my blood boil and tears well up
fucking scumbags
we still have lamp posts
just saying
Hate to say it but lamp posts and the like are the only language these cunts seem to understand. No consequences to do the right thing so no incentives either. That's why they have expensive ex-SAS/special branch security staff (and we paid for their training also...we're mugs).

A good public telling off is the worst they'll get and as they're shameless that's just a cost of business before a nice lunch in the afternoon.

This guy is worth a listen. He does have some legal powers actually.

 

This article reads like a "Software development - how not to do it" guide :rolleyes:

No developer really wants to spend large amounts of time anticipating and dealing with error conditions, far less have to retrofit it to an existing system, but they clearly threw the thing together piecemeal to start with, and the whole process sounds incredibly amateurish. Similarly, the various issues with things going wrong where other tasks were being run against the system is absolute schoolboy error stuff - if you're going to be updating data, you HAVE to make sure you've got the appropriate locks and semaphores in place to avoid two different processes accessing and changing the same data. It's such an important issue that these features are built into any respectable database management system...except, of course, then you have to think about how to handle it when an error is thrown, which they clearly hadn't done.

The whole thing sounds like a cobbled together mess, and my guess is that a lot of the real problems arose from their various efforts to try and firefight their way past all these issues as they arose (at least, the issues they couldn't just pretend away).

Bottom line - I think this software was a basket case from the day the first developer put digit to keyboard. Any decent project manager/systems designer could have seen these problems looming up WAY ahead of time, and should have done something about it. I'd be intrigued to know more detail about the early development process that led to this chaotic and dismal farce.
 
The BBC are reporting Fujitsu rules itself out of UK public contract bids during Post Office inquiry

I have mixed feelings about this. One one hand I am glad they won't bid for further business while the PO inquiry is on going, on the other I worry about the alternative firms who specialise in getting uk public contacts and providing absolute dog shit (Capgemini, Capita, BT, Serco, infosys, etc).

The post office horizon scandal is the high profile case of the moment, but there are so many more car crash systems out there.
 
Ha. This doesn’t stop them from:

  • Subcontracting for giant chunks of infrastructure and legacy software maintenance underneath other primes, as they did happily for years through HP at DWP and Capgemini for HMRC
  • Picking up new work through contract variations on existing contracts
  • Winning business through direct awards under existing framework agreements
  • Winning business under G-Cloud or whatever the cheap and cheerful direct award scheme for digital services is called these days

So, not as much of a hairshirt as it might seem.
 
A typically weak contribution from the near-invisible Chartered Governance Institute, but a helpful guide to those responsible for corporate misgovernance aspects of this affair ... and what the consequences have been for each of them to date:

The City grandees who let the Post Office fight to the bitter end

It would be good to hear from some of those mentioned, given that documents that appear to show that the Post Office Board was aware of the Horizon system's failures back in 2013 - indeed it was so worried about a potential miscarriage of justice that it alerted its insurers:


 

Evidence was heard on Friday at a public inquiry into the scandal of a reluctance in the Japanese software company to make the Post Office aware of a “known error log” chronicling all the bugs and defects.

When they were acknowledged, Fujitsu witness statements due to be heard in court were then edited by the Post Office as it sought to maintain the line that the system was working well as it pursued innocent people through the courts.

“I am surprised that that detail was not included in the witness statements given by Fujitsu staff to the Post Office and I have seen some evidence of editing witness statements by others,” Paul Patterson told the inquiry.

Asked by the lead counsel of the public inquiry, Jason Beer KC, whether he agreed that this was shameful, Patterson, who has worked at the company for 13 years, said: “That would be one word I would use. Shameful and appalling. My understanding of how our laws work in this country, that all of the evidence should have been put in front of the subpostmasters that the Post Office was relying on to prosecute them.”
The Post Office edited Fujitsu witness statements. :eek:
 
Ha. This doesn’t stop them from:

  • Subcontracting for giant chunks of infrastructure and legacy software maintenance underneath other primes, as they did happily for years through HP at DWP and Capgemini for HMRC
  • Picking up new work through contract variations on existing contracts
  • Winning business through direct awards under existing framework agreements
  • Winning business under G-Cloud or whatever the cheap and cheerful direct award scheme for digital services is called these days

So, not as much of a hairshirt as it might seem.

And the 20+ major public contracts they currently hold or are partnered-in to, some awarded very recently will undoubtedly keep them going in the meantime..!
 
They're already doing it. All that hair-shirt contrition is just about putting "moral" distance between them and POL - it's gesture. They'll go for the "we dumb, we wuz misled" defence, and hang as much as possible on POL.
I'd say they were. (to a point)...was ICL that put everything together Fujistu bought them, largely to aquire their shiny new post office system
 
I'd say they were. (to a point)...was ICL that put everything together Fujistu bought them, largely to aquire their shiny new post office system

Fujitsu had been the majority shareholder in ICL since 1990, six years before the Horizon contract was awarded and they had been in active partnership (mainly for hardware) and then building a holding with ICL for nearly a decade before that.

The main reason ICL rebranded to Fujitsu was to try and stem the damage in the wake of the failure and losses incurred by the failure of the first iteration of Horizon, when the DWP pulled-out, losing £500-odd million.
 
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