Hundreds of Post Office workers ‘vindicated’ by High Court ruling over faulty Post Office IT system

[Wilf]

It's a bit of a sideline, given the guilt of Vennels and other senior execs, but the PO investigators seem to be absolutely vile individuals. Though, to be fair, I doubt that many in house company investigators, are all that grand. Kind of comes with the territory.

 

[zahir]

Post office Investigator still convinced of the guilt of a postmaster despite his conviction being overturned by Scottish courts:

Former Post Office investigator insists cleared Horizon IT victim was guilty

Raymond Grant says his ‘time was limited’ after being forced to appear at inquiry over minimum witness statement

www.theguardian.com

The article makes for somewhat terrifying reading.

This is the questioning in case anyone wants to listen to it.

 

[izz]

It's a bit of a sideline, given the guilt of Vennels and other senior execs, but the PO investigators seem to be absolutely vile individuals. Though, to be fair, I doubt that many in house company investigators, are all that grand. Kind of comes with the territory.

I guess it's possible that there were some investigators whose findings were honest (and who were ignored) but yes, they were recruited and trained with the sole aim of trapping cheating post office staff, t'wouldn't surprise me if there was a bonus scheme involved somewhere as well. The elites basically looked at the performance of the post office as an organisation and made the fundamentally illogical and incorrect assumption they were being robbed blind by their own staff and everything cascaded down from there.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I guess it's possible that there were some investigators whose findings were honest (and who were ignored) but yes, they were recruited and trained with the sole aim of trapping cheating post office staff, t'wouldn't surprise me if there was a bonus scheme involved somewhere as well. The elites basically looked at the performance of the post office as an organisation and made the fundamentally illogical and incorrect assumption they were being robbed blind by their own staff and everything cascaded down from there.

There was a bonus scheme.

 

[brogdale]

There was a bonus scheme.

Target driven results; so Blairite

 

[Wilf]

There was a bonus scheme.

Indeed, as there was for senior staff who got paid extra for their work responding to the inquiry.

 

[izz]

There was a bonus scheme.

Of course there was. Don't tell me, let me guess, was it based on the number of successful convictions by any chance ? Or the number of defrauding subpostmasters they found ? This whole case just never fails to make me livid and I just wonder how many similar cases there are out there.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Of course there was. Don't tell me, let me guess, was it based on the number of successful convictions by any chance ? Or the number of defrauding subpostmasters they found ? This whole case just never fails to make me livid and I just wonder how many similar cases there are out there.

I don't know the details, but I caught a bit of the ex-PO investigator at the hearing yesterday, he said they were on a bonus for monies [not owed] being 'recovered'.

 

[Hollis]

There's only so much of Raymond Grant I can take... there's a certain type isn't there.

 

[Hollis]

It's a bit of a sideline, given the guilt of Vennels and other senior execs, but the PO investigators seem to be absolutely vile individuals. Though, to be fair, I doubt that many in house company investigators, are all that grand. Kind of comes with the territory.

Yeah - twats with a narrow range of knowledge that they like parading, a small position of power they feed off, and very very devious.

 

[teqniq]

It's a bit of a sideline, given the guilt of Vennels and other senior execs, but the PO investigators seem to be absolutely vile individuals. Though, to be fair, I doubt that many in house company investigators, are all that grand. Kind of comes with the territory.

Proper scumbag here:

 

[two sheds]

From that Guardian article:

Grant, a programme manager at the charity [Salvation Army] who works with homeless people, said he had been too busy with activities such as carol singing, making Christmas dinners and walking his dog over the festive period when the inquiry expected him to write up his witness statement.

...

Grant said he had received 78 documents totalling 450 pages to read. He said this was an “inordinate amount” he only “glanced” at, and that he was given just 26 days to write up his witness statement. The statement filed to the inquiry was just over two pages long.

Representatives of the inquiry chased Grant, who described them on Wednesday as having “different priorities to mine”, and eventually sheriff officers visited his house to deliver a section 21 notice forcing him to comply and appear at the inquiry.

“That kind of focused me,” he told the hearing. “I drafted the minimum statement to comply with the section 21 order. I apologise to court [but] I do not think it was a fair thing to ask me to do in such a short space of time considering this inquiry was going on for months and years.”

Sounds like he was given time to do it but just didn't bother until he was forced with the time restriction. Still, at least he'd done some carol singing, made Christmas dinners and walked the dog

 

[scifisam]

Proper scumbag here:

View attachment 409526

View attachment 409525

Aren't they among the many with no current recourse? Might apply to at least some of the legally exonerated too. Criminal convictions being vacated is one thing, returning money fraudulently obtained via an accusation of fraud is another. It's a hell of a lot of money for normal people to pay back.

I don't particularly care if a few SPMs who were genuinely on the fiddle - not this man and his wife, but any of them - now get away with it under the cloak of the thousands who were wrongly accused. It'd cost the public purse less to just reimburse the lot of them and it'll be impossible to ever say "this person was the one who really did steal stuff."

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

... it'll be impossible to ever say "this person was the one who really did steal stuff."

the post office and fujitsu made sure of this with their lies

 

[existentialist]

From that Guardian article:


Sounds like he was given time to do it but just didn't bother until he was forced with the time restriction. Still, at least he'd done some carol singing, made Christmas dinners and walked the dog

It just gets worse.

 

[equationgirl]

Asian women steal, said post office Investigators:

Ex-post office operator claims she was told British Asians were often pushed into theft

Exclusive: Kuldeep Kaur Atwal says auditors urged her to admit to stealing £30,000 – a charge of which she was later cleared

www.theguardian.com

 

[existentialist]

Yeah, so let's add racism to the mix. Any time now, someone in that inquiry is going to leap up and shout "HOUSE!"

 

[equationgirl]

Yeah, so let's add racism to the mix. Any time now, someone in that inquiry is going to leap up and shout "HOUSE!"

To be fair, it's been in the mix since a post office document was found that categorised postmasters using terms such as 'negroid' and 'dark skinned Europeans' amongst others.

 

[equationgirl]

Also by 1995 serious 'data corruption problems' were known about with the Horizon predecessor Capture.

 

[Wilf]

Asian women steal, said post office Investigators:

Ex-post office operator claims she was told British Asians were often pushed into theft

Exclusive: Kuldeep Kaur Atwal says auditors urged her to admit to stealing £30,000 – a charge of which she was later cleared

www.theguardian.com

Astonishing and also not surprising.

 

[equationgirl]

I'm seriously expecting a bunch of comments about 'no blacks, no Irish, no women' from these investigators because it's like they're stuck in the 1950s. And yet, as you say Wilf, not surprising

 

[Wilf]

I'm seriously expecting a bunch of comments about 'no blacks, no Irish, no women' from these investigators because it's like they're stuck in the 1950s. And yet, as you say Wilf, not surprising

Just going back to the racialised/racist classification they used, despite them saying this was a 'historic document' (in the link), it was actually published between 2008 and 2011. Also, it appears to say that it was written by, again astonishingly, PO lawyers. Which isn't to say lawyers are any less racist than anyone else, but you'd think they'd have a basic awareness of common sensibilities/decency when actually committing things to paper. Also, of course, everyone else involved in the process, including reasonably senior management would have had sight of that document. Slightly worries me that the inquiry won't quite drill down far enough to identify who actually put the document together/approved stuff like this. Can't remember the actual exchanges on this point, but there was a tendency for counsel to ask a question, then ask it again with a note of incredulity and then move on. Suppose they'll have access to the papers though, so we'll have to see.

Post Office used racist term for Black people, documents show

Investigators in Horizon IT scandal were asked to group suspects by racial features, including ‘negroid types’

www.theguardian.com

 

[Wilf]

This has probably been posted upthread, but I've just found my way to a search box that allows you to search through transcripts of the hearings:

Searchable transcripts of the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry hearings — Searchable transcripts of the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry hearings documentation

 

[gosub]

I'm seriously expecting a bunch of comments about 'no blacks, no Irish, no women' from these investigators because it's like they're stuck in the 1950s. And yet, as you say Wilf, not surprising

I thought it was 'no blacks, no dogs, no Irish'. The battle between dogs and the Post an historic and unresolved one

 

[moochedit]

Though, to be fair, I doubt that many in house company investigators, are all that grand. Kind of comes with the territory.

Usually ex-coppers who had to "retire early"

 

[Wilf]

Usually ex-coppers who had to "retire early"

'Are you a racist? Do you like bullying people? Well, there's a future for you in today's modern Post Office! Ex-cops particularly welcome'.

 

[equationgirl]

I thought it was 'no blacks, no dogs, no Irish'. The battle between dogs and the Post an historic and unresolved one

I believe that is the actual saying, however I was making a point about the types of stuff we're seeing in this case rather than being 100% historically accurate.

I suspect some people did not let rooms to single women though...

 

[WouldBe]

Saw somewhere today that the PO have also been trying to recover money lost in armed robberies from sub PM's even when the PO have failed to upgrade the security.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

 

[scifisam]

Saw somewhere today that the PO have also been trying to recover money lost in armed robberies from sub PM's even when the PO have failed to upgrade the security.

Yup, one of the guys who was later convicted of "theft" - one of the main SPMs in the group taking action against the PO - also had that done to him by the PO after an armed robbery. He was seriously injured and the police had no doubt it was a real robbery, but the PO brought it up at his trial as extra evidence of fraud.