Hundreds of Post Office workers ‘vindicated’ by High Court ruling over faulty Post Office IT system

[equationgirl]

There was a woman interviewed on R4 this morning. She wasn't convicted but she said her life had been ruined anyway (used all her savings making reparation for the money that had gone 'missing', she'd lost her business, her reputation and has had this hanging over her for 15 years). She was still massively upset even talking about it and said any compensation offered to people in her situation would likely be very low. (She mentioned a number, can't remember how much exactly, but maybe £70k or something). So people in her position need to get decent compensation too.

I think that's the current minimum settlement value. It's looking a being increased.

In the early days a lot of subpostmasters were making up any system shortfalls out of their own funds. Otherwise it meant hours and hours trying to make the books balance, which they wouldn't because the accounting software was wrong.

 

[Wilf]

You need to seriously consider if urban is the right place for yoyou.nah, fùck thT

Nah fuck that. There's no party line, if posters want to chat shit they get told. How could it be otherwise?

 

[scifisam]

A million is never going to happen.

Some SPMs lost more than others, but it would be simpler, and less costly, to apportion debts based on £200,000 per convicted postmaster (to go to their heirs, if they're dead).

The people who were coerced into "paying money back" should have that paid back plus inflation and 5% interest. If PO can't confirm the exact amounts, but does confirm that they took money from the subpostmasters, then it's £100,000.

As to where it comes from, since this does have to be from govt coffers - we magicked up millions to pay Michelle Mone for PPE that didn't exist. And this is still less than that, isn't it, when all added up?



A million or 100,000, it's all fantasy. They won't get anything.

 

[Wilf]

A million is never going to happen.

Some SPMs lost more than others, but it would be simpler, and less costly, to apportion debts based on £200,000 per convicted postmaster (to go to their heirs, if they're dead).

The people who were coerced into "paying money back" should have that paid back plus inflation and 5% interest. If PO can't confirm the exact amounts, but does confirm that they took money from the subpostmasters, then it's £100,000.

As to where it comes from, since this does have to be from govt coffers - we magicked up millions to pay Michelle Mone for PPE that didn't exist. And this is still less than that, isn't it, when all added up?



A million or 100,000, it's all fantasy. They won't get anything.

It's when you get to this level of detail that you get a grasp of the obscenity of it. People going into debt to pay monies that Professional Liars have brought into existence - not money they or anyone ever owned. That filthy bastard who was grilled today was the company's wide boy/pit bull - tbh a mere exception
of filth, of no more importance, the dirty Gollum he was - ah, fuck it, I've no more words for these remnants. TBH, SpookyFrank has the best turn of phrase for expressing contempt, I'll leave it to him. No pressure, like.

 

[SpookyFrank]

It's when you get to this level of detail that you get a grasp of the obscenity of it. People going into debt to pay monies that Professional Liars have brought into existence - not money they or anyone ever owned. That filthy bastard who was grilled today was the company's wide boy/pit bull - tbh a mere exception
of filth, of no more importance, the dirty Gollum he was - ah, fuck it, I've no more words for these remnants. TBH, SpookyFrank has the best turn of phrase for expressing contempt, I'll leave it to him. No pressure, like.

As for finding the money, well all the money they gouged out of innocent people must still exist somewhere. Why it's not theft, and conspiracy along with it, to say people owe you money when they don't and then collect it with menaces, I have no idea.

As for expressions of contempt, I have to defer to Tom Waits here:

The kind of people who would sell you a rat's arsehole for a wedding ring.

 

[teqniq]

Absolute fucking scum. I haven't gone into all the detail but the compensation scheme provided by the Post Office was deliberately designed to minimise payouts:

How the Post Office got away paying £15.75 compensation

I keep going back to this Daily Mail story in which a postmaster who was financially ruined received only £8,000 compensation. How could that happen?

www.taxpolicy.org.uk

 

[Pickman's model]

There are quite a few far far worse things happening in the world right now which have been completely bumped from the news cycle. And I can assure you, there are many people quite happy about this in the run up to the election. Particularly when they can stand up in the Commons and claim this is 'massive travesty of justice and we are going to do everything we can to sort it out' Wake up.

Poor whataboutery

 

[brogdale]

Absolute fucking scum. I haven't gone into all the detail but the compensation scheme provided by the Post Office was deliberately designed to minimise payouts:

How the Post Office got away paying £15.75 compensation

I keep going back to this Daily Mail story in which a postmaster who was financially ruined received only £8,000 compensation. How could that happen?

www.taxpolicy.org.uk

Entirely consistent with the ethos and practices of their single shareholder.

 

[elbows]

I was ignorant about the origins and original intentions of Horizon until today:

Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show

The then-PM was told IT system now at the centre of the Post Office scandal was "possibly unreliable".

www.bbc.co.uk

In 1998 Horizon was being developed by a firm called ICL, owned by Fujitsu, as a way of paying welfare benefits through Post Office counters using a swipe card.

Ultimately this element of the project was dropped and the system was rolled out in 1999 for tasks like accounting and stocktaking instead.

The Horizon project, which was launched under John Major's Conservative government, was running more than two years behind schedule by 1998.

The project was referred up to Sir Tony to decide if it should continue.

Lord Mandelson's letter also warned that if the government cancelled the contract "our relations with Fujitsu, a major inward investor into the UK over the past decade, would be severely damaged, as would the credibility" of Private Finance Initiatives or PFIs - then a new method of funding major projects.

 

[brogdale]

I was ignorant about the origins and original intentions of Horizon until today:

Tony Blair was warned Horizon IT system could be flawed, documents show

The then-PM was told IT system now at the centre of the Post Office scandal was "possibly unreliable".

www.bbc.co.uk

An effective microcosm of why we're where we are.

 

[alex_]

An effective microcosm of why we're where we are.

This is why we have a failed computer system, the post office management are who decided to send people to jail and ignore evidence to the contrary.

IT projects fail all the time, this is not the evil part.

Alex

 

[gosub]

I bet the Palestinians who lost their homes and families and got bombed really hate the sub-postmasters who lost their homes and families but didn't get bombed. You know, like people with terminal cancer hate people with diabetes.

D9esnt stop their supporters tunneling into other threads...should have turned left back there mate. There's a world forum and a UK forum separate things

 

[scifisam]

D9esnt stop their supporters tunneling into other threads...should have turned left back there mate. There's a world forum and a UK forum separate things

Didn't realise you were a cunt before, thanks for the info.

 

[alex_]

IT projects fail all the time, this is not the evil part.

I realise I’m quoting myself, but anyone blaming Ed davie, Tony Blair, or Fujitsu is wildly missing the point.

A smallish number of senior post office managers knew that the post office was prosecuting people based dodgy evidence. They then embarked on a years long cover up.

This is the scandal, and these are the people who should be in court.

Alex

 

[Mezzer]

I realise I’m quoting myself, but anyone blaming Ed davie, Tony Blair, or Fujitsu is wildly missing the point.

A smallish number of senior post office managers knew that the post office was prosecuting people based dodgy evidence. They then embarked on a years long cover up.

This is the scandal, and these are the people who should be in court.

Alex

Fujitsu covered up too though and so is clearly culpable.

 

[DJWrongspeed]

This is why we have a failed computer system, the post office management are who decided to send people to jail and ignore evidence to the contrary.

IT projects fail all the time, this is not the evil part.

Alex

Exactly, it's the willful coverup with union assistance that has led to this.

On another note, if PO Submasters were making up the balances with their own money were there another group taking money out where the balance was positive?

 

[xenon]

I haven’t watched this programme. Simply because it makes my blood boil every time I hear about this travesty. I’ve been aware of it for several years. As we can’t have blood, those behind the cover-up needs serious jail time. And a post office should be stripped of its right to bring prosecutions itself. What an insane situation. A corporation being able to investigate and prosecute supposed crimes against itself.

 

[two sheds]

This is a strange one

Post office owner says Horizon system was used to frame him for wife’s murder

Robin Garbutt hopes for fresh appeal against conviction that came after jury heard evidence using data from discredited IT system

www.theguardian.com

With no DNA evidence to link him to the murder or the metal bar used to kill Diana, Garbutt was convicted in part after the jury heard evidence from a Post Office investigator using data from the Horizon system. This purportedly showed he was stealing money from the Post Office and then killed his wife to cover up his theft.

The prosecution claimed Garbutt concealed his theft via a series of false declarations about the amount of money in the Post Office safe. The investigator told the jury the pattern of high overnight cash declarations was one “I have seen replicated across many Post Office Limited fraud cases in the past”.

No idea whether he did it but fucking iffy evidence there. Also accusations that he killed her because she was going to leave him though.

Exactly, it's the willful coverup with union assistance that has led to this.

On another note, if PO Submasters were making up the balances with their own money were there another group taking money out where the balance was positive?

I'd imagine so, just from that story:

He said unreliable data from Horizon “was used in court to make me look bad”. He claims he and Diana often could not reconcile the fortnightly balances with the figures on the computer, so would put cash in themselves if there was a shortfall or take it out if there was a surplus. “We had a lot of problems with the system going down, not working,” he said.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Fujitsu covered up too though and so is clearly culpable.

And massively skimped on product development in the first place to make more money. If they'd built something that worked or admitted that it didn't work before they installed it, none of this would have happened.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I am not convinced anyone will end up being jailed, but that's what the P.O. Minister is now calling for.

The minister responsible for the Post Office says he wants to see people jailed over the Horizon IT scandal.
Kevin Hollinrake said that people found to be responsible for the scandal "must be held to account" after the official inquiry reaches a verdict.

Speaking on the BBC's Any Questions show, Mr Hollinrake said: "If it's individuals, those people can be criminally prosecuted, potentially, and potentially can go to jail.
"I think we'd all like to see that kind of route taken. People must be held to account."
Asked if he wants to see those responsible from the Post Office jailed, he replied: "I absolutely do", adding that it would be the "ultimate deterrent".

Post Office scandal: Minister says he wants to see those responsible jailed

Kevin Hollinrake said that people "must be held to account" over the scandal.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[teqniq]

Not only has there been a cover-up but Fujitsu have been remotely altering data. This was broadcast 10/01/24 and contains a conversation with an ex-postmaster, Dave from Nottingham who goes into the detail of what happened. I edited out the relevant bit for someone on Twitter but in the end had to upload it to Mastodon as Twitter really doesn't like audio uploads at all. Anyway give it a listen:

Dave from Nottingham

original broadcast link:

Nicky Campbell - Your questions to the sub-postmasters - BBC Sounds

Nicky Campbell takes your calls on the day's talking points.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Wilf]

I realise I’m quoting myself, but anyone blaming Ed davie, Tony Blair, or Fujitsu is wildly missing the point.

From the BBC Sounds, Brown comes out with a bit more credit in that he raised scrapping Horizon - on the grounds it was shit. Blair was worried about Japanese investment and kept it.

 

[Chz]

Not only has there been a cover-up but Fujitsu have been remotely altering data. This was broadcast 10/01/24 and contains a conversation with an ex-postmaster, Dave from Nottingham who goes into the detail of what happened. I edited out the relevant bit for someone on Twitter but in the end had to upload it to Mastodon as Twitter really doesn't like audio uploads at all. Anyway give it a listen:

Dave from Nottingham

original broadcast link:

Nicky Campbell - Your questions to the sub-postmasters - BBC Sounds

Nicky Campbell takes your calls on the day's talking points.

www.bbc.co.uk

I've long said they're definitely culpable for at least conspiracy to commit fraud, but that proves it.

 

[redsquirrel]

From the BBC Sounds, Brown comes out with a bit more credit in that he raised scrapping Horizon - on the grounds it was shit. Blair was worried about Japanese investment and kept it.

He's crap and harmful of course, but Brown is probably the least harmful of all PMs in my lifetime.

 

[two sheds]

The postmasters sent to prison were presumably caught in the trap where they couldn't say they weren't guilty because that would prevent any time off their sentence?

 

[gosub]

I am not convinced anyone will end up being jailed, but that's what the P.O. Minister is now calling for.

Post Office scandal: Minister says he wants to see those responsible jailed

Kevin Hollinrake said that people "must be held to account" over the scandal.

www.bbc.co.uk

Gareth Jenkins seems to think he could

 

[Chilli.s]

Gareth Jenkins

Demands immunity or wont give evidence?

Charge him

 

[equationgirl]

Exactly, it's the willful coverup with union assistance that has led to this.

On another note, if PO Submasters were making up the balances with their own money were there another group taking money out where the balance was positive?

To quote a subpostmaster who knew quite a few other subs in his area :

'i never heard of the system ever being over, amongst any of us'.

These were people desperately trying to make the books balance. Before computerised accounting, they used pen and paper and he said his books would sometimes be out by a few pounds either over or under, but nothing more. Once computerised accounts came in, he said it would routinely be out by hundreds of pounds and after hours of trying to make the books balance, him and the others he knew would just pay the shortfall out of their own funds.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Urgh, it just gets worse by the day. This story first broke in to the mainstream in 2015 when Panorama exposed it, before broadcasting the Post Office set their lawyers on the programme makers and whistleblowers to threaten all sorts if they released this info, at this point they all knew it was the system's fault but choose to continue the cover up, going as far as pressuring the Director General to kill the programme. Whilst it was that what got the ball rolling to get where we are today, why the fuck has it taken nearly 9 years before it gains the momentum that was needed a decade ago?

#11 states:

Westminster this week is rightly focused on the Post Office Horizon scandal after the moving ITV drama about former sub-postmaster Alan Bates and his efforts to achieve justice for the more than 700 people who wrongly received criminal convictions – including Chirag Sidhpura in Farncombe whose case will be familiar to many people. It was therefore really welcome that Rishi Sunak announced yesterday that the government will be taking the exceptional approach to overturn the convictions that still stand.

Does it really take a docu-drama before government does the right thing these days? state of the fucking country.

 

[Karl Masks]

I am not convinced anyone will end up being jailed, but that's what the P.O. Minister is now calling for.

Post Office scandal: Minister says he wants to see those responsible jailed

Kevin Hollinrake said that people "must be held to account" over the scandal.

www.bbc.co.uk

Loving the virtue signalling. 300,000 dead due to austerity...none of these wankers call for jail time. Grenfell burns people to death....same. I could go one