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How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

DaveCinzano said:
Quite famously, yes. But the point I was making is that there is no suggestion that John Vassall - a gay civil servant blackmailed into revealing secrets by Soviet intelligence - was a paedophile, involved in a paedophile ring, or connected to a “long term high level UK paedophile ring”.

On a behemoth thread about paedophiles I think it's an important distinction to clarify, given the number of people reading this who might otherwise mistake his presence here for something there has never been (as far as I am aware) any evidence for. It's just that he was a notable resident of Dolphin Square.
Click to expand...

I agree.
 
Just as an aside, yesterday was another spike of interest in this story, with Brittan's twisting in the breeze plain for all to see. However it didn't feel like a staging post towards prosections - ditto the MPs calling for an overall inquiry. Quite the opposite, it was little more than an illustration that there won't be prosecutions, unless some other document emerges which puts some lower level player in the frame (elbows point last night).

Absurd to judge the story just 24 hours on, but it also doesn't seem to have much traction today. Already slipped down the guardian's front page. Also, Tom Watson seems to have left the field on this one. Don't know that he was ever going to use parliamentary privelige to say anything or if he just hasn't got anything robust enough.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Are we suggesting that any of the Satanic Panic allegations were anything other than fundie horseshit?
Click to expand...

A few years back, at a very delayed election count, I had a long and involved conversation with an elderly Marxist activist who'd been something high up in local education in the early 70s. She had kept hearing concerns about ritualistic abuse in local childrens homes but every attempt she made to follow it up fell on deaf ears. I dont recall wether or not it was related to the specific ritual nature, but one name that was mentioned is pretty household and respected and one I've heard separately in this context, kind of one of those "loads of people know" horrors that one assumes the best of anyway without court cases. As I keep saying, principles, patterns, themes etc. are more important than knowing individual names.

From what I can tell, Satanism is an incredibly tiny pursuit in the UK, IIRC Crowley did write some stuff about child sacrifice - what type of victim was best and why, but I won't go into it.

Satanism is more practiced in the US. Far from being a figment of fundamentalist Christian imagination, it could even be said to be a product of it. Common/garden paganism has been deliberately slurred by the fundies to equate it with Satanism. People (often young) who then dabble in paganism come to think they are Satanists and identify themselves as such. Theres a doc on the Columbine massacre that explains this pretty well.

Obviously most "satanists" wouldn't go near child sacrifice either. Mainstream Satanism can even make efforts to look quite respectable.

The lady I had that conversation agreed with me that there could be a bit of a blind spot for the left in regards to this: "opium of the people" is one of those quotes whose context is as interesting as the catchphrase, but many leftists are instinctive atheists (many are not of course, and there is no raw philosophical causal link between socialism and atheism). If leftists don't believe in "god" and are used to denouncing the whole gig, then they will have at least as negative an attitude towards the "satan" concept. It's understandable that they struggle to fully compute the idea and thus go no further in considering consequences.

That conversation was one of quite a few, plus other stuff I've come across where, single instances, the tendency would be to shove it to the back of the mind and find reasons why it neednt have veracity.

But after a while, you hear so many similar things from seemingly balanced people who have healthy thinking that you really begin to wonder. There's a lot of that wondering going on right now I suspect.
 
This is an important text related to some of the above mentioned topic. It's long, but not neccessary to read all of it maybe - just down to where you are told why it has it's name. The bona fides of the speaker seem substantial and genuine. It's not available in audio or vidio form.

http://www.whale.to/b/greenbaum.html
 
This post is from justthetalk.com:

In the time I lived in Brighton I was told by two separate people - one a former Hove police sergeant, the other a well established and high ranking volunteer at Brighton Victim Support - that there had been a series of sacrificial child murders in Rottingdean, a seaside town just a couple of miles from Brighton.

These had happened a few years ago but were covered up because they involved a VIP and it was "in the interest of the general public" that they weren't brought to light.

Do I think they're true? Yes. Will I do anything about it? Of course not. Because people like you and me hear this kind of gossip, and we wait for THOSE IN CHARGE to do something about it.

But the reality is that "those in charge" are "those doing it", backed up by people who DO WHAT THEY'RE TOLD AND DON'T ASK QUESTIONS.

My police sergeant friend summed up his attitude another time, when he described a stake out on someone's home. He hadn't a clue what the case was, nor who the suspect was. He was just told what to do, and report what he saw and heard. Like so many people within the police, he just did what he was told and didn't "make waves".

And that's precisely how corruption of this nature happens.

I met a former chief inspector of West Midlands police one time, and he told me a similar story. "The corruption", he said "goes right to the very top". "There's NOTHING you can do about it, because someone will only bury the evidence, demote you, slander you, or make you go away".

That's the way it is, people. Those like Jimmy Saville and Rolf Harris are just the tip of a very deep and very large iceberg.

And those involved will do whatever they possibly can to make sure that none of it ever comes out.

And they will do so by buying politicians, buying newspapers, and controlling whomever they see fit to control by whatever means it takes.

I just found a news item on one of the Rottingdean murders, from 1958

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat
=19581220&id=1mhAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XpUMAAAAIBAJ
&pg=3038,6098704
 
You know, wildly and randomly speculating here, if I was, say, a 1980s Government minister of a particularly Machievellian tendency, facing the possibility of a wide-ranging and possibly quite embarrassing investigation into abuse at very high levels, one evil plan I might come up with would be to utterly over-egg the pudding. Start putting wild rumours out about Satanic abuse, all kinds of spooky and hugely organised stuff going on all over the place, stagemanage a couple of noisy investigations in the provinces (a long way away from anything I didn't want discovered), let it all crash around for a couple of years until it emerges that the Satanic stuff was completely over the top. Then it all dies down, the "oh well, that's all right" attitude sets in, and you're nicely inoculated against future calls for investigations, because you just mutely point to the clusterfuck that was the Satanic one, and people go..."oh well, that's all right then". Well, enough people to make the risk of a general outcry a lot smaller.
 
existentialist said:
You know, wildly and randomly speculating here, if I was, say, a 1980s Government minister of a particularly Machievellian tendency, facing the possibility of a wide-ranging and possibly quite embarrassing investigation into abuse at very high levels, one evil plan I might come up with would be to utterly over-egg the pudding. Start putting wild rumours out about Satanic abuse, all kinds of spooky and hugely organised stuff going on all over the place, stagemanage a couple of noisy investigations in the provinces (a long way away from anything I didn't want discovered), let it all crash around for a couple of years until it emerges that the Satanic stuff was completely over the top. Then it all dies down, the "oh well, that's all right" attitude sets in, and you're nicely inoculated against future calls for investigations, because you just mutely point to the clusterfuck that was the Satanic one, and people go..."oh well, that's all right then". Well, enough people to make the risk of a general outcry a lot smaller.
Click to expand...

Have you ever thought of a career in politics?

rabbit-hole.jpeg
 
Clegg and a few others are going through the motions of asking for an investigation into what happened to the papers. Whenever you get that I get a surreal image of the process, some twat wandering round an archive, looking in cupboards, asking if x still works there - the sort of thing you'd do if you were 'looking for stuff'. Of course that level of detail is the last thing the minister who might order such an 'investigation' wants to hear.
 
happie chappie said:
I'm not sure I agree. Both Clegg and Steel were interviewed on camera which means follow up questions could be asked. steel's on-camera interviews about Cyril smith certainly didn't do him any favours at all.

Issuing a statement through a solicitor does give the impression (possibly unfairly) that Brittan has something to hide.

It also means that it is easier for him to avoid answering any awkward follow-up questions arising from his statement and so minimizing the possibility of tripping himself up - always a possibility if you are being less than fully truthful.

And that any statement is pored over by the lawyers before it is issued - although they don't seem to have made a particularly good job of it in this case. Perhaps they were simply wrong-footed by the Home Office's statement seemingly contradicting Brittan's first statement.

The problem is that neither the Brittan and Home Office lines are credible and, even worse, they can't get their story straight between them.
Click to expand...

Brittan has always had the misfortune of looking guilty, even at the despatch box. he's one of those people who always look sweaty and panicked, even when they're not, so he probably thinks going on camera is a hiding to nothing.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
A few years back, at a very delayed election count, I had a long and involved conversation with an elderly Marxist activist who'd been something high up in local education in the early 70s. She had kept hearing concerns about ritualistic abuse in local childrens homes but every attempt she made to follow it up fell on deaf ears. I dont recall wether or not it was related to the specific ritual nature, but one name that was mentioned is pretty household and respected and one I've heard separately in this context, kind of one of those "loads of people know" horrors that one assumes the best of anyway without court cases. As I keep saying, principles, patterns, themes etc. are more important than knowing individual names.

From what I can tell, Satanism is an incredibly tiny pursuit in the UK, IIRC Crowley did write some stuff about child sacrifice - what type of victim was best and why, but I won't go into it.
Click to expand...

Crowley wasn't a Satanist. :facepalm:

Satanism is more practiced in the US. Far from being a figment of fundamentalist Christian imagination, it could even be said to be a product of it. Common/garden paganism has been deliberately slurred by the fundies to equate it with Satanism. People (often young) who then dabble in paganism come to think they are Satanists and identify themselves as such. Theres a doc on the Columbine massacre that explains this pretty well.
Click to expand...

Satanism in the US comes under two main groupings: Temple of Set and Anton Lavey's various outfits. Neither of them are actually Satanist (i.e. they're not Christians blaspheming by desecrating the ritual and practice of Christianity), they're hedonists who aren't morally-responsible enough to take responsibility for their life choices, so they file their swinging and group sex under "religion".

Obviously most "satanists" wouldn't go near child sacrifice either. Mainstream Satanism can even make efforts to look quite respectable.
Click to expand...

There's no such thing as "mainstream Satanism" in the UK, and the few Satanic covens etc that there are, you'd never hear about, simply because they police their practices very carefully. The "Satanists" you hear about are the bedbugs/lunatic fringe - the robe-wearing "look at me" types, not the actual believers.
 
theres a horrible whiff of power-fantasy right wingy ubermensch stuff about levays satanic bible. Not read Compleat Witch tho, so maybe he qualifies this later. Carny shit anyway
 
DotCommunist said:
theres a horrible whiff of power-fantasy right wingy ubermensch stuff about levays satanic bible. Not read Compleat Witch tho, so maybe he qualifies this later. Carny shit anyway
Click to expand...

Nope, that's a theme through most of his shite, and the Temple of Set too. Middle-class honkies getting their horn and their hate on.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
This post is from justthetalk.com:

In the time I lived in Brighton I was told by two separate people - one a former Hove police sergeant, the other a well established and high ranking volunteer at Brighton Victim Support - that there had been a series of sacrificial child murders in Rottingdean, a seaside town just a couple of miles from Brighton.

These had happened a few years ago but were covered up because they involved a VIP and it was "in the interest of the general public" that they weren't brought to light.

Do I think they're true? Yes. Will I do anything about it? Of course not. Because people like you and me hear this kind of gossip, and we wait for THOSE IN CHARGE to do something about it.

But the reality is that "those in charge" are "those doing it", backed up by people who DO WHAT THEY'RE TOLD AND DON'T ASK QUESTIONS.

My police sergeant friend summed up his attitude another time, when he described a stake out on someone's home. He hadn't a clue what the case was, nor who the suspect was. He was just told what to do, and report what he saw and heard. Like so many people within the police, he just did what he was told and didn't "make waves".

And that's precisely how corruption of this nature happens.

I met a former chief inspector of West Midlands police one time, and he told me a similar story. "The corruption", he said "goes right to the very top". "There's NOTHING you can do about it, because someone will only bury the evidence, demote you, slander you, or make you go away".

That's the way it is, people. Those like Jimmy Saville and Rolf Harris are just the tip of a very deep and very large iceberg.

And those involved will do whatever they possibly can to make sure that none of it ever comes out.

And they will do so by buying politicians, buying newspapers, and controlling whomever they see fit to control by whatever means it takes.

I just found a news item on one of the Rottingdean murders, from 1958

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat
=19581220&id=1mhAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XpUMAAAAIBAJ
&pg=3038,6098704
Click to expand...

The Rottingdean murders have been the subject of various conspiracy theories for over 50 years, everything from aliens to Satanists to Freemasons, and every lunacy in-between. Everything except "some murderous cunt killed some kids".
 
scalyboy said:
That reads as nutty to me
Click to expand...

It's crap. Psychology as a discipline has pretty much disavowed all the techniques that the author talks about, because nowadays they're understood to be programming techniques, not techniques for recovering repressed/buried memories.
 
Barking_Mad said:
Daily Express - 27th June 1984

exp270684a.jpg
Click to expand...

I remember these 'slurs' and was just about to post about them.
Senior conservatives at the time said it was a story invented to discredit Brittan, made by disgruntled MI5 officers angry at the Home Secretary's action of altering the pay and conditions of serving officers.
All brushed under the carpet, but sling enough mud and eventually thirty years later it starts dropping off the fan.

This was all around the time Clive Ponting was passing state secrets to Tam Dalyell regarding the sinking of the Belgrano.
This was just after Hilda Murrell, aunt of Commander Robert Green was murdered in strange circumstances.
Thatcher was also getting hounded over the security services allegedly being involved in her death.
 
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