DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
Sunday People via Exaro:
How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?
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elbows
Well-Known Member
The Express story is on their website. It does indeed appear to overlap heavily with some Exaro pieces, although in this story the victim is named and gives details.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/453381/Female-MP-abused-boy-in-care
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/453381/Female-MP-abused-boy-in-care
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Maybe?
teqniq
DisMembered
I am trying to be circumspect and give them the benefit of the doubt but upon reflection, fuck knows why.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
I always got the impression re: Kincora at least, that spook complicity in organized child-rape was all about leverage and blackmail rather than simply protecting politicians and other "players" being an end in itself.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Hmmm....I think there's fairly well established grounds for believing that the spooks deliberately 'lost' significant evidence in the case of Morrison, and that protection bordered some very significant 'players'.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Where have you heard that about the Morrison stuff? There has been a depressing lack of anything regarding him beyond the comments by Currie and the brief media interest that followed.
Cyril Smith is the main example cited of spooks/special branch causing evidence and files to go astray.
Beyond that we just have a few strands of the Elm Guest house initial investigations and raids that may have been influenced by spook activity. And there were some moments where the 'anti-paedophile' crusading by MP Geoffrey Dickens may have been messed with via dirty tricks, e.g. a press conference he planned to talk about this stuff suddenly turned into one about his own personal life (marriage/affairs) after the press magically obtained lurid details at just the right time.
That and Kincora stuff.
Cyril Smith is the main example cited of spooks/special branch causing evidence and files to go astray.
Beyond that we just have a few strands of the Elm Guest house initial investigations and raids that may have been influenced by spook activity. And there were some moments where the 'anti-paedophile' crusading by MP Geoffrey Dickens may have been messed with via dirty tricks, e.g. a press conference he planned to talk about this stuff suddenly turned into one about his own personal life (marriage/affairs) after the press magically obtained lurid details at just the right time.
That and Kincora stuff.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
elbows
Well-Known Member
Ah yes, and I don't doubt that Morrison was given special treatment. It's just unclear as to what level this was done at, i.e. whether special branch and spooks even needed to do much in his case, as opposed to other parts of the system shielding him by default.
For example the paragraph above the one you quoted:
By the way that same article has a follow-up to one aspect covered by 'The Boys Business' tv program. That the child abused in a particular video featured in the program was tracked down.
For example the paragraph above the one you quoted:
By the way that same article has a follow-up to one aspect covered by 'The Boys Business' tv program. That the child abused in a particular video featured in the program was tracked down.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
The fact that nothing has come of the Rod Richards (warning : Mail link) statement and this C4 report (http://bcove.me/i2qbaijf), suggests that there might well have been a large amount of effort put into covering up the Morrison cover up(s).
e2a : I wonder what became of the tory party promise to investigate the reports about Morrison?
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elbows
Well-Known Member
There is no way I could say that until the fresh north-wales investigations are complete and info made public. Depending on various details, very little effort may have been required this time.
Certainly I would not expect anything else to have come from the Rod Richards statement or the channel 4 report yet, especially as Morrison is long dead so there isn't going to be an arrest. We'll just have to wait for official reports.
In the meantime any attempts to find out what is going on or whether there were any VIP abusers in North Wales is not likely to be possible by just using public/victims internet utterances. And not just because of all the complications stemming from what Steve Messham said, but the various wars that have broken out between victims & others who went through the north wales care home system back in the day. There has been plenty of cases of these people attacking each other online and all manner of accusations flying. And one of those who said a lot online, and may or may not have been the anonymous victim interviewed by channel 4, may himself have been arrested in November. I would like to go into more detail, but it is not easy for numerous reasons and the quality of info is not great. But certainly one possibility is that he was questioned by police for campaigns of internet verbal abuse against other victims, and that some of his statements contradict what he said to channel 4 (if it was even him in that piece).
elbows
Well-Known Member
I should probably point out that I am keeping a very open mind about the sort of shit I described in the last paragraph of my previous post. At best there have been many horrible incidents in the last year+ of people who were badly damaged by their time in care, turning on each other on the net for a multitude of reasons. At worst there have been people with dodgy agendas stirring this stuff up even more. Some of the phenomenon at work are the same as when conspiracy theorists turn on each other, with a deeply paranoid worldview not offering a solid foundation for rational enquiry and reasonable trust between people who should have shared interests and motivations.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
theres probably been a bit of both going on . Most of the characters believed to have frequented kincora werent at the centre of power . However William McGrath, the paedophile who set up and ran the place, is thought to have been one of their agents since the mid 60s .
Its most likely , particularly with senior politicians, theyre protecting some of their own agents as well as those others they had leverage over .
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
You'd expect some of that, perhaps, particularly from victims of violent abuse. Sexual abuse survivors often do not come over as very appealing, particularly if their abuse was violent, drug-facilitated, or took place over a long time - they may well have significant personality disorders, drug problems or other associated issues, and be extremely angry and hostile people who take any kind of scepticism about their story very badly indeed.
Like the victims in the Rochdale case, whom it was very easy for the police to see as criminals/perpetrators in their own right, these people may well not come over at all well, and the danger is that they get filed in the category marked "wrong 'un" and are taken less seriously, with the result that an investigation which is reliant on them as witnesses is hampered. It's probably stating the obvious, too, but someone who may well have ended up (or perhaps even started out) living on the street, dealing/using drugs, getting involved in petty crime, just to survive, may well have plenty of experience of the police already, not much of it very positive, and that isn't exactly going to help rapport, particularly if they may have already tried to get the police involved in their abuse and felt that they've been let down.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
All very good points, most of which have the potential to be exploited by any agency seeking to confuse, obfuscate or generally disrupt the process of genuine inquiry.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Or which just can't be arsed. That Nick Davies thing about 49 Churchill Road is telling on the subject of Home Office stats and policing priorities, where it is clear that paedophile activity really doesn't have the priority that one would have expected it to have.
I think that policing-by-statistics is dangerous, in that it not only encourages a "low hanging fruit" type of strategy, but also offers the perfect excuse for other agencies to have an enquiry scuppered if they want to.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Yes, I'd imagine that has been much the most common response, but in certain cases, like Morrison's, it does appear that more proactive attempts at concealment have, thus far, been effective.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I still don't think any new claim of attempts at concealment regarding Morrison can be made just now. At the time he was alive, yes. But this time around we have no way of knowing, not yet anyhow. It's not like the north wales investigations have concluded yet, we don't have any fresh whitewashes to point at.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
I'm not really in a position to argue with that, nor do I particularly want to....but....I'm not really attempting to make any new claims about the concealment of Morrison's activities. It's just the fact that, thus far, nothing has been officially conceded or exposed despite the claims from two former ministerial colleagues, journalists like Davies and, of course the victims themselves. Add that to what Davies claimed as cover-up in 1998, and the overall picture looks like one of successful concealment. Such concealment was also ensured by the no-names policy of the Waterhouse inquiry.
I have tried to find any evidence of thr report/inquiry that the tories promised back when C4 aired their report, but I very much doubt that any such exercise was conducted; there is rather too much at stake for the tories on this one. If the truth about Morrison does ever reach the MSM, such reports will quickly be followed by the usual 'who knew what?' and 'what did they do about it?' stuff , and the reputation of their dead queen might be at risk.
As such, I very much doubt that Morrison's victims will get justice.
elbows
Well-Known Member
To the best of my knowledge we have not actually heard publicly from any victims of Morrison. The person interviewed by channel 4 did not claim to have been a victim themselves. And the victim who they also interviewed, who did not seek anonymity, was abused by staff rather than outsiders.
They can't promise such things and simply not deliver at all. There are at least two investigations that centre around the north wales care home stuff.
There is operation Pallial, which has, as of the last time I checked in December, resulted in 18 arrests so far. It came out with an initial public report much earlier in 2013, but I expect the sort of detail people clamour for is not going to be forthcoming until any criminal proceedings have been dealt with.
And there is an investigation into the original terms of the Waterhouse inquiry. This inquiry is being headed by Julia Macur.
It is certainly true that the conservative party said they were also looking into matters surrounding this stuff, and I don't know what has happened to that. At a minimum I doubt it will result in anything public until these other investigations/inquiries have done their work.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Hmmm...I wouldn't be so sure.
At the height of the news stories surrounding the Bryn Estyn abuse, Cameron did confirm that a tory party investigation into the specific claims made about Morrison would take place. ITV reported it thus...
With hindsight, that looks exactly like the classic 'kick into the long grass' tactic of attempting to close down a damaging story. Now I've no doubt that Dave probably tasked a few trusty advisors to scope the extent of the damage and how the effects might be mitigated, but I'd be very surprised if any formal, internal inquiry took place, certainly not one with findings that might one day be made public. I'd say that cameron pretty skillfully killed the Morrison angle for a while.
I suppose what I'm saying is that I think they did promise in the full knowledge that they'd simply not deliver. I accept that there are dangers with that strategy for the party, especially if any of the Morrison details do become public, but it looks as though the spooks are doing their level best to make sure that doesn't happen. If the story did blow open properly, then the journos might remember Dave's Nov 2012 promise of an investigation, but I'm not hopeful.
As it stands, I think you're right, if pressed for any info on this 'investigation', they'd blah on about not wishing to compromise on-going inquiries, national security bollox or somesuch.
I suppose really an email to C4 News might be a good idea?
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elbows
Well-Known Member
All inquiries & police investigations inevitably lead to angles being killed for a while.
I certainly don't place any faith in internal party inquiries, just look at how the liberals/lib-dems handled accusations about Cyril Smith over the years, truly pathetic.
I would suggest an email to the conservative party might be a better starting point, to ascertain what their official line is regarding their own inquiry. It would not surprise me if their present line is along the lines of deferring to the police & other investigations for now.
I'm still clueless as to the basis for your claim that the spooks are doing their level best to make sure Morrison details do not become public. The recent revelations about spook interest in Elm Guest House investigations are disturbing, but even there we do not know quite how they plan to deal with any revelations or potential criminal proceedings that may arise. At a minimum we can assume that they want to be fully informed about how its going, but its too early to say they are scuppering things.
Certainly we could make some assumptions about possible motive. e.g. that even if they no longer care about protecting/blackmailing/whatever the individuals involved, or the historical reputation of the parties & governments involved, that some dodgy justification along the lines of protecting the state image, and public faith in mainstream parties, institutions and law enforcement bodies could be conjured up. That and their own historical role in prior cover-ups.
Frankly though I'm not sure the outcomes would be so very different even if they don't bother to do anything this time around. The length of time that has passed since the abuse occurred, the nature of any evidence, and the likely scale of the abuse by powerful people make it hard to anticipate an almighty shitstorm and true justice being the most likely outcomes. By this I mean that there is nothing in the public domain which would lead us to believe that abuse on the scale that Savile is accused of is likely to be exposed in relation to any MPs. Nor have there been any reports that lead us to believe that a sufficient number of victims of any particular political VIP have been found that would enable a relatively easy prosecution to be made as was the case with Stuart Hall. (i.e. strongly demonstrating a pattern of abusive behaviour).
I have suggested previously that it would actually be in the interests of the current status quo, institutions and todays politicians for at least one living political figure of the past to be brought to justice over these abuses. Mostly in order that the present suspicions of fresh coverup, and associated loss of faith in the system and those who man it be somewhat reduced. This is not a safe assumption on my part though, especially if such a prosecution opened a large can of worms.
I certainly don't place any faith in internal party inquiries, just look at how the liberals/lib-dems handled accusations about Cyril Smith over the years, truly pathetic.
I would suggest an email to the conservative party might be a better starting point, to ascertain what their official line is regarding their own inquiry. It would not surprise me if their present line is along the lines of deferring to the police & other investigations for now.
I'm still clueless as to the basis for your claim that the spooks are doing their level best to make sure Morrison details do not become public. The recent revelations about spook interest in Elm Guest House investigations are disturbing, but even there we do not know quite how they plan to deal with any revelations or potential criminal proceedings that may arise. At a minimum we can assume that they want to be fully informed about how its going, but its too early to say they are scuppering things.
Certainly we could make some assumptions about possible motive. e.g. that even if they no longer care about protecting/blackmailing/whatever the individuals involved, or the historical reputation of the parties & governments involved, that some dodgy justification along the lines of protecting the state image, and public faith in mainstream parties, institutions and law enforcement bodies could be conjured up. That and their own historical role in prior cover-ups.
Frankly though I'm not sure the outcomes would be so very different even if they don't bother to do anything this time around. The length of time that has passed since the abuse occurred, the nature of any evidence, and the likely scale of the abuse by powerful people make it hard to anticipate an almighty shitstorm and true justice being the most likely outcomes. By this I mean that there is nothing in the public domain which would lead us to believe that abuse on the scale that Savile is accused of is likely to be exposed in relation to any MPs. Nor have there been any reports that lead us to believe that a sufficient number of victims of any particular political VIP have been found that would enable a relatively easy prosecution to be made as was the case with Stuart Hall. (i.e. strongly demonstrating a pattern of abusive behaviour).
I have suggested previously that it would actually be in the interests of the current status quo, institutions and todays politicians for at least one living political figure of the past to be brought to justice over these abuses. Mostly in order that the present suspicions of fresh coverup, and associated loss of faith in the system and those who man it be somewhat reduced. This is not a safe assumption on my part though, especially if such a prosecution opened a large can of worms.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
I don't think any of us can actually make any 'claims' that the spooks are doing their best to keep the Morrison case under wraps; we obviously don't have any evidence to prove it. I'm merely supposing that this is the case based upon things like the 1998 Davies article, the revelation by 'The S. People' that cops are posing as reporters and the fact that the political class, and their parties have much to lose. It's not hard to imagine what the public reaction would be if/when it emerges that senior politicians were abusing children and that this was known to others within the system, possibly at the very highest levels.
I really don't think it is too conspiraloon to speculate that many ex, and serving ministers must have at least known of Morrison's paedoplhilic activity; Rod Richards himself said as much of William Hague. Nor do I think it is going OTT to suppose that Morrison's seniors were made aware of the efforts to keep his activites under wraps; I very much doubt that the spooks would have done so with no reference to their political masters. I strongly suspect that preserving Thatcher's reputation is paramount in tory party thinking on this matter.
ska invita
back on the other side
Female MP 'abused care home boy aged 13 as part of paedophile network at heart of government'
Jan 12, 2014 http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/female-mp-abused-care-home-3015744
Jan 12, 2014 http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/female-mp-abused-care-home-3015744
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
I wonder who will get his collection of Ovenden paedo pics.
gosub
~#
Think being wrongly publicly outed as a paedophile can't have done much for his health. Its quite a largeextended family though, with a lot of connections round Wrexham
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