How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?
- Thread starter free spirit
- Start date
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
I think it's narrowing the focus unnecessarily, too. By all means, the Masonic connections should be looked at (assuming they exist), but so should all the others.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
You're a loony and have an alarm, or you're attributing lunacy to people who "gratuitously" (who decides what is and isn't gratuitous?) mention Freemasons?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
As I said on this and another thread many moons ago, the Masonic connections, if they exist, will likely point up just another method by which paedophiles in North Wales and elsewhere "networked" with one another. I've no doubt other "establishment" organisations were put to use too. We're all familiar with the paedophile scoutmaster trope.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
You mentioned Freemasons gratuitously there.
TBF, for most Freemasons, any mention of their organisation is gratuitous, especially by the profane (that's us "non-members", btw!
).They're great - the most unsecret "secret society" in the history of occult organisations!
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
This. I think it is vanishingly unlikely that any part of the formal structure of Freemasonry is in any way officially involved in these antics. The connection between Freemasonry and such things is no more significant than the connection between golf clubs, local pubs, sports clubs and them.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Which are significant insofar as being nexuses for people who engage in such things, but not, as you say, because the organisations themselves have any involvement.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Child sexual abuse being such a taboo, the only organisations in which it is possible for it to thrive openly would be ones formed specifically for that purpose, or where the overwhelming majority of members are at least tolerant of such activity.
Certainly, there is a grey area in the middle, such as what we've seen with the BBC - it seems scarily possible for an organisation to simply fail to see the scale of a problem, particularly if there are well-protected and charismatic individuals involved. And, in theory, any organisation - including Freemasonry - could find itself in a similar position. But the difference there is that the BBC is an organisation that is in thrall to the charismatic individuals who are its "personalities", and by virtue of what it does - viz., entertainment - is in a position where it has been able to unwittingly provide opportunities for abusers and victims to come together.
Anything else is simply going to be a slightly specialised version of the same social networking that has people who are interested in similar sports or hobbies coming together, not necessarily as part of the organisation (let's be quite clear here that I am not considering child sexual abuse to be either a sport or a hobby!!!).
free spirit
more tea vicar?
which is why I'm not asking for all freemasons lodges in north wales to be immediately shut down / prosecuted, I'm suggesting that there should be an inquiry to determine what the truth of the situation actually is.
If there's no truth to the accusations then surely the freemasons would welcome the chance to be exonerated having been very publicly named as being complicit.
1%er
Well-Known Member
I think you are correct.
Every freemason who honors the oath they took would agree that there should be an inquiry, if there is credible evidence.
Is there credible evidence?
The way lodges are set up, I could see a lodge of peados getting together. The difficulty would be identifying who to invite, you invite the wrong mason and its game over, but I think its possible,Grand-lodge only knows whats going on in any lodge because they get a copy of the minutes, but they would have get past the "visiting officer", I haven't been to a lodge for over 30 years, I only joined because i have an interest in ritual and had an easy way in.
It could be a group posing as masons to be able to book function rooms for "private" meetings. Lots of hotels have lodge rooms and wouldn't blink an eye at a request for the use of the Lodge. It wouldn't be the first time.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
OK, indulge me here. In terms of the "oath" Freemasons are supposed to be "honoring", why should we agree there should be an inquiry?
Is that so? How much do you know about the process that is involved in setting up and consecrating a lodge? Just flying a kite here, but are you thinking that it's as simple as grabbing a few fellow-travellers, popping together a proposal for the "Death in Venice" lodge, and Bob's your uncle?
That would be the least of the difficulties. You really are talking complete bollocks, here. Trust me on this (not you, but the non-lunatics who are reading this).
Which wouldn't make it Freemasonry.
Lots of hotels have rooms. Some of them may - arguably - be used by Freemasons as lodge rooms, but that doesn't make them Masonic any more than the fact that the same room might get used to do bingo on Tuesdays makes it, er, "bingonic". I don't think you can conflate the idea that a hotel might hire out the same room that might - just might - get used by a Masonic lodge as an indication that, somehow, the room then magically has Masonic connections.
And I could just as easily pop up to my local hotel, book a room in the name of the Nether Scrotewrangler Owl-fancier's Club and spend the evening rubbing hazelnut yogurt into my scalp while fondling bowls of lime jelly and whistling "Edelweiss", without it having any kind of greater significance...
free spirit
more tea vicar?
ffs is your search function broken? you could have just searched the thread and found the previous discussion in the time it took you to have an argument with Butchersapron.
1%er
Well-Known Member
["if there is credible evidence"]Because the masons oath includes upholding the law and if I recall correctly, they have a duty to inform Grand Lodge [or someone] of any unlawful activity by other members.
Many lodges are set up by people who have a common interest, just look at the UGLE site, there are lodges for everything from explorers to ex-members of the boys brigade. There are loads of special interest lodges and trade lodge lodges, there are tube and train drivers lodges, a taxi drivers lodge, estate agents lodges etc.....
Why is it bollocks? Other than the minutes of a lodge meeting (the official record of the meeting), how does grand lodge know what is going on with-in a lodge? If the ritual was correct how would the visiting officer know someone was wrong?
Lodge rooms in most hotels are not multipurpose
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
Lots of pubs used to be used for Masonic meetings if my grandfather's papers are anything to go by
1%er
Well-Known Member
They will have been for the "festive board" the meal and or drink after the lodge meeting, unless the pub had a working lodge room.Lots of pubs used to be used for Masonic meetings if my grandfather's papers are anything to go by
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
I dunno, it looked like these may have been monthly events
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Freemasons are supposed to abide by the law - there's no obligation on them to inform, AFAIK. I have seen situations where members have been criticised in no uncertain terms, though, for admitting to or boasting about naughty things they've got up to.
Indeed - my mother lodge was formed from a local Home Guard regiment. But I still think we are unlikely ever to see the Child Violinists Lodge of Unity any time soon - overtly or covertly.
Sorry, maybe we're talking at cross-purposes here. Are you seriously suggesting that a gang of paedophiles could get together, form a Masonic Lodge, use it as a nexus for their nefarious deals, but go to all the trouble of holding and minuting meetings, etc., etc.?
Why would they bother? I mean, wouldn't they be better off all just going round to the house of one of their members and doing whatever it was they wanted to do there? Why bother paying all the dues and fees, having to go to all the trouble to falsify their Lodge records, document the fact that they had all been there and met on a regular basis for the handy use of law enforcement later, and so on?
You seriously think a hotel is going to set aside a prime piece of floorspace for the occasional use of a Masonic Lodge? I can't speak with that much authority, only having spent the last 23 years in Freemasonry, but I have yet to attend a meeting in a hotel that has taken place in a dedicated Lodge room within the hotel. It just doesn't happen. I've been to meetings in hotels, and in pubs, where the lodge room has been set up using an existing function room, as well as attending many, many meetings in dedicated Lodge rooms in Masonic halls, but never in such a room in a hotel. Of course, I am more than happy to bow to your superior experience on the matter...Lodge rooms in most hotels are not multipurpose
1%er
Well-Known Member
My understand was that Masons were obliged to report any wrong doing with-in Masonry and I can't think of any I knew who would not report such a matter to the police, it isn't like buying a TV off the back of a lorry.Freemasons are supposed to abide by the law - there's no obligation on them to inform, AFAIK. I have seen situations where members have been criticised in no uncertain terms, though, for admitting to or boasting about naughty things they've got up to.
Indeed - my mother lodge was formed from a local Home Guard regiment. But I still think we are unlikely ever to see the Child Violinists Lodge of Unity any time soon - overtly or covertly.
Sorry, maybe we're talking at cross-purposes here. Are you seriously suggesting that a gang of paedophiles could get together, form a Masonic Lodge, use it as a nexus for their nefarious deals, but go to all the trouble of holding and minuting meetings, etc., etc.?
Why would they bother? I mean, wouldn't they be better off all just going round to the house of one of their members and doing whatever it was they wanted to do there? Why bother paying all the dues and fees, having to go to all the trouble to falsify their Lodge records, document the fact that they had all been there and met on a regular basis for the handy use of law enforcement later, and so on?
You seriously think a hotel is going to set aside a prime piece of floorspace for the occasional use of a Masonic Lodge? I can't speak with that much authority, only having spent the last 23 years in Freemasonry, but I have yet to attend a meeting in a hotel that has taken place in a dedicated Lodge room within the hotel. It just doesn't happen. I've been to meetings in hotels, and in pubs, where the lodge room has been set up using an existing function room, as well as attending many, many meetings in dedicated Lodge rooms in Masonic halls, but never in such a room in a hotel. Of course, I am more than happy to bow to your superior experience on the matter...
No I am not saying a gang of peados can open a lodge, what I said was, if a group of masons who were also peados got together they could form a lodge, it is highly unlikely, but possible. I have no idea why they would bother, I had no idea why people bothered with ghost lodges, but I was invited to join more of them than I was real lodges
LOLMy mother lodge was in London and the hotel had 3 dedicated lodges, I guess in the provinces things are different. As I said above my interest was the ritual and I didn't go to other Lodges much.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
it's not necessarily about an entire lodge of pedos, it's about the interwoven web of deceit that can form over time within a close knit organisation that can result in members having a hold over other members on top of the favors for fellow freemasons aspect.
Please consider that the head freemason in north wales for several decades at the time of this abuse was the father of one of the key suspects in that abuse - a guy who seemed to have somehow ended up actually managing to have one of the kids he was abusing arrested for stealing from him, and ensuring that the police did nothing about the kids accusations against him - not something that someone without some form of hold over the police could achieve IMO.
Another mason was the cop responsible for the area covering at least one of the homes involved and the main police contact for anything going on at the homes - now I'd not like to imply that he was guilty of anything being as his word as a copper (and a mason?) meant that the accusations of 6 allegedly abused kids counted for nothing in court... but anyway yeah, he was a mason.
Erm, from memory, the deputy chief constable of North Wales up to the early 70s was a high level mason, and I think I'm right in remembering that there were coppers groups at several lodges in the area - ie not an entire lodge of coppers, but the coppers met at the lodge one day a week / month or however it works.
Ah yes, then there was the mason on the inquiry team that found the other mason copper to be credible when he denied abusing kids and found the 6 kids testifying not to be credible witnesses.
etc.
None of this is proof of course, but it's a fair indication that the conspiracy to cover up these crimes apparently perpetrated by over 80 people over a period of several decades is likely to have had at least some significant masonic involvement IMO.
Please consider that the head freemason in north wales for several decades at the time of this abuse was the father of one of the key suspects in that abuse - a guy who seemed to have somehow ended up actually managing to have one of the kids he was abusing arrested for stealing from him, and ensuring that the police did nothing about the kids accusations against him - not something that someone without some form of hold over the police could achieve IMO.
Another mason was the cop responsible for the area covering at least one of the homes involved and the main police contact for anything going on at the homes - now I'd not like to imply that he was guilty of anything being as his word as a copper (and a mason?) meant that the accusations of 6 allegedly abused kids counted for nothing in court... but anyway yeah, he was a mason.
Erm, from memory, the deputy chief constable of North Wales up to the early 70s was a high level mason, and I think I'm right in remembering that there were coppers groups at several lodges in the area - ie not an entire lodge of coppers, but the coppers met at the lodge one day a week / month or however it works.
Ah yes, then there was the mason on the inquiry team that found the other mason copper to be credible when he denied abusing kids and found the 6 kids testifying not to be credible witnesses.
etc.
None of this is proof of course, but it's a fair indication that the conspiracy to cover up these crimes apparently perpetrated by over 80 people over a period of several decades is likely to have had at least some significant masonic involvement IMO.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
I know that the Orange Order isn't quite mainstream Freemasonry, but doesn't the career of William McGrath suggest ways in which dodgy fraternal organisations can benefit predatory far-right fruitcake paedophiles and their cop/spook facilitators?
elbows
Well-Known Member
The latest couple of articles from Exaro on the subject:
As usual its a subscription service so only get the start of the articles and I havent checked to see if their partner newspaper for these stories has written related articles yet.
Detectives are investigating links between Elm Guest House and what became known as Britain’s biggest paedophile ring
http://www.exaronews.com/articles/4956/elm-guest-house-linked-to-britain-s-biggest-child-sex-racket
Ex-Richmond boss Louis Minster denies being... Louis Minster
Listen to extraordinary conversation between ex-head of social services and Exaro reporterhttp://www.exaronews.com/articles/4950/ex-richmond-boss-louis-minster-denies-being-louis-minster
As usual its a subscription service so only get the start of the articles and I havent checked to see if their partner newspaper for these stories has written related articles yet.
Detectives are investigating links between Elm Guest House and what became known as Britain’s biggest paedophile ring
http://www.exaronews.com/articles/4956/elm-guest-house-linked-to-britain-s-biggest-child-sex-racket
Ex-Richmond boss Louis Minster denies being... Louis Minster
Listen to extraordinary conversation between ex-head of social services and Exaro reporter
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Claims that Stuart Hall had "help" / "mates" in Parliament were curiously removed from the Independent website, claims this blog signposted at The Needle
http://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/the-paedofile-stuart-hall-references-to-parliamentary-accomplice-add-grist-to-westminster-paedophile-mill/
http://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/the-paedofile-stuart-hall-references-to-parliamentary-accomplice-add-grist-to-westminster-paedophile-mill/
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
I've seen a couple of sites in Norn Iron where the local Orange Hall is right next door to the local Freemason's Lodge. Don't forget that NI is also a real "everyone knows everyone else" place, so covert networks of wrong 'uns are quite easy to organise, even without the assistance of fraternal organisations.
elbows
Well-Known Member
The police are denying it. But their words suggest that whatever the truth of the state of play right now, since he is dead and this isnt a public inquiry, the bulk of what they were going to do in the first place was acknowledge victims that came forwards.
http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/new...olice-deny-dropping-cyril-smith-investigation
Also since the GMP are nothing to do with the Fernbridge investigation, I wonder if the suggestion that he is now 'off the hook' is stretching things a bit. I guess we'll have to wait and see what Fernbridge actually achieves before coming to a conclusion.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Also in regards to Cyril Smith, we do already have the admittance by the crown prosecution service that he should have been charged in his lifetime, so I will never consider him to be off the hook. The question for me is who else may be off the hook that helped to cover up his crimes. For example the Lib Dems have so far brushed away questions about this with little effort, and I have no clue as to whether any of the investigations or reports will get into the spooky side of things. Based on history and the nature of spook work, we should clearly not anticipate this side of things getting a proper airing without a significant struggle and outcry forcing it, and even then murk in this area is stubborn to shift to put it mildly.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Yes, I agree that using the term 'off the hook' for the deceased is rather redundant. But I remain concerned that this GMP investigation is being downplayed to the point that Exaro regard it as closed, (whatever the Police say themselves).
Its also concerning that there is apparently no coordination between GMP & Fernbridge when Smith was indentified as an alleged abuser at Elm Guest House.
Its also concerning that there is apparently no coordination between GMP & Fernbridge when Smith was indentified as an alleged abuser at Elm Guest House.
happie chappie
Well-Known Member
Contributor on Nicky Campbell's phone in on Radio 5 Live now saying that he expects imminent arrests relating to allegations of a sexual abuse ring in London - including a former cabinet minister.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Yep. I heard that too. He was, of course, speculating just as we have above. I would imagine that he has little or no more actual infomation than we do from Exaro etc.
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