How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

[Pickman's model]

They put the secret oath and loyalty to the Lodge above the morality of the outside world.

Hence corruption in planning etc.

to be honest it's not exactly like it's a secret oath. when i was 17 i had copies of masonick initiation rites i'd found in a library, and no i'm not a freemason.

 

[audiotech]

Don't forget the Illuminati!

Shit, I said it!

Mentions shadowy malevolent group, so can appear perceptive and clever.

You didn't add the customary word "sheeple" to go with it.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's also alleged in this article and this book that he was also a member of the North Wales Police Authority, which I think included through the 70s and 80s.

a member of the north wales police authority? you're right to use the word 'alleged' in connection with that sort of serious allegation.

even if it would in fact be a matter of publick record.

 

[free spirit]

a member of the north wales police authority? you're right to use the word 'alleged' in connection with that sort of serious allegation.

even if it would in fact be a matter of publick record.

can you find the public record to prove he was or wasn't?

I've checked the NWPA website and they don't seem to list past members, and I've no idea how to go about verifying the truth or otherwise of this electronically.

I don't see it as being particularly unlikely though do you?

 

[Pickman's model]

can you find the public record to prove he was or wasn't?

I've checked the NWPA website and they don't seem to list past members, and I've no idea how to go about verifying the truth or otherwise of this electronically.

I don't see it as being particularly unlikely though do you?

ask them http://www.nwalespa.org/freedom_of_information-11.aspx

 

[Pickman's model]

Lloyd Tyrell-Kenyon, 5th Baron Kenyon1

M, #346062, b. 13 September 1917, d. 1993

Last Edited=8 Oct 2011
Lloyd Tyrell-Kenyon, 5th Baron Kenyon was born on 13 September 1917.3 He was the son of Lloyd Kenyon and Gwladys Julia Howard.2 He married Leila Mary Cookson, daughter of Commander John Wyndham Cookson, on 3 June 1946.3 He died in 1993.3
He was Ch Commissioner of for Wales Boy Scouts –66, Tstee Nat/l Portrait Gallery 1953–93 (chm 1966), chairman Wrexham, Powys and Mauddach HMC 1960–93, Friends of Nat Libraries 1966 Assoc 1948.3 He was memb: Advsy Cncl Educn –47, Standing Commn Museums and Galleries 1953–60, Welsh Hosp Board 1958–63, Cncl for Professions Supplementary to Medicine 1961–65, Royal Commn Historical MSS. 1966 Wales 1944.3 He was Doctor of Law (LL.D.) (Wales) 1958, Fellow, Society of Antiquaries (F.S.A.) Wales 1958.3 He gained the title of 5th Baron Kenyon. He was educated Eton and Magdalene College Cambridge.3 He was Officer, Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem (O.St.J.).3 Baron of Gredington.3 He was Captain Royal Artillery (Territorial Army) (ret ) in 1943.3 He was Justice of the Peace (J.P.) in 1944.3 In 1946 CC Flints (chm 1954), pres: UCNW Bangor 1947, Nat/l Museum of Wales 1952–57.3 He was Deputy Lieutenant (D.L.) in 1948.3 He was Commander, Order of the British Empire (C.B.E.) in 1972.3 He was dir: Lloyds Bank, Nat/l Provident Institute for Mutual Life Assur, Felixstowe Dock and Rlwy County in 1973.3

 

[elbows]

Getting ready to watch channel 4 news again.

Meanwhile I'm going to go back to Peter Morrison yet again, since despite a lack of new detail I dont want this angle to drop off the radar.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...osses-desperate-atone-humiliation-Savile.html

​

Was one of them the late Peter Morrison, a former close aide to Margaret Thatcher? An unnamed former Bryn Estyn resident said he saw Morrison, MP for Chester between 1974 and 1992, visit the home several times in the 1980s and take boys away in his car. ​

​

The claim is not implausible. Why? Because it was common knowledge in Westminster circles that Morrison had an unhealthy interest in boys.​

​

Edwina Currie — a junior health minister in the Thatcher government — spelled it out, in black and white, in her diaries which were published in 2002. ​

​

‘One appointment in the recent reshuffle,’ she wrote, ‘has attracted a lot of gossip and could be very dangerous: Peter Morrison has become the PM’s PPS [Parliamentary Private Secretary].​

​

‘Now he’s what they call a “noted pederast”, with a liking for young boys. He admitted as much . . . when he became deputy chairman of the party but added: “However, I’m very discreet” — and he must be!’​

​

‘She [Thatcher] either knows and is taking a chance, or doesn’t; either way, it’s a really dumb move. It scares me, as all the Press know, and as we get closer to the election, someone is going to make trouble very close to her indeed.’​

​

​

 

[free spirit]

View attachment 24923
Alfred 'Jimmie' McAlpine - liked his cars, and chaired construction company Sir Alfred McAlpine & sons, son of Lord Alfred McAlpine, and grandson of Sir Robert McAlpine. Now allegedly was a child abuser.

Lord (Alistair) McAlpine - Tory treasurer under Margaret Thatcher, and former(?) director of construction firm Sir Robert McAlpine & sons, and grandson of Sir Robert McAlpine. Now alleged by the Guardian not to be a child abuser but a victim of mistaken identity.


I can see how someone could get the 2 mixed up tbh, so the Guardian could be right.

That said, it seems a little odd that tory lord McAlpine would claim to have only been to the place once, unless the family was totally estranged from each other / disowned, as they are cousins... having said that, I suppose I only really see my cousins at their parents houses, so maybe that is plausible.

fwiw, I was thinking about this last night, and as far as I know the only actual allegations of abuse that could be attributed to Jimmie McAlipine come from Messham indirectly via Gregory who suggested in the Guardian article that it could be a case of mistaken identity for Jimmie McAlpine, BUT also said that he wasn't aware of any actual allegations against him, although he does link him to the homes themselves.

The evidence from Messham itself about any McAlpines being involved seems to have come from a couple of the police showing him a picture of one of his abusers in an interview and apparently telling him that this was Lord McAlpine.

Messham also says that he knew this person as Tom.

Given that there is another son of a local Lord already implicated by others in this who's name actually was Tom, I'm re-evaluating all this, and on second thoughts, the evidence against Jimmie McAlpine now seems pretty flimsy.

Unless Meesham is prepared to look at photos of both Tom Kenyan and Jimmie McAlpine, and say if it was either of these 2, I can't see that there's much in the way of evidence to support any allegations against either Jimmie McAlpine (or from this source alone Tom kenyan, as that link is more speculation on my part based on him being accused by others, having the same first name as on Messham gave himself, and also being the son of a local lord, which could possibly have resulted in the police getting mixed up about which lord he was the son of).

 

[caoineadh7]

So, Freemasonry as opposed to any other reason like, oh..I dunno... the fact that they're degenerate perverts from various walks of life who'd conspire to cover up their deviance anyway?



Was north Wales in the '70s and '80s particularly rife with Freemasons?



So, one admission of membership. many tens of thousands to go!

According to this councillor who was abused as a child in care homes in north Wales, all the abusers were Masons, so its highly relevant as are the claims of a cover up by masons in the police and judicary.

 

[butchersapron]

According to this councillor who was abused as a child in care homes in north Wales, all the abusers were Masons, so its highly relevant.

How does he know then?

 

[free spirit]

Lloyd Tyrell-Kenyon, 5th Baron Kenyon1

M, #346062, b. 13 September 1917, d. 1993

Last Edited=8 Oct 2011
Lloyd Tyrell-Kenyon, 5th Baron Kenyon was born on 13 September 1917.3 He was the son of Lloyd Kenyon and Gwladys Julia Howard.2 He married Leila Mary Cookson, daughter of Commander John Wyndham Cookson, on 3 June 1946.3 He died in 1993.3
He was Ch Commissioner of for Wales Boy Scouts –66, Tstee Nat/l Portrait Gallery 1953–93 (chm 1966), chairman Wrexham, Powys and Mauddach HMC 1960–93, Friends of Nat Libraries 1966 Assoc 1948.3 He was memb: Advsy Cncl Educn –47, Standing Commn Museums and Galleries 1953–60, Welsh Hosp Board 1958–63, Cncl for Professions Supplementary to Medicine 1961–65, Royal Commn Historical MSS. 1966 Wales 1944.3 He was Doctor of Law (LL.D.) (Wales) 1958, Fellow, Society of Antiquaries (F.S.A.) Wales 1958.3 He gained the title of 5th Baron Kenyon. He was educated Eton and Magdalene College Cambridge.3 He was Officer, Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem (O.St.J.).3 Baron of Gredington.3 He was Captain Royal Artillery (Territorial Army) (ret ) in 1943.3 He was Justice of the Peace (J.P.) in 1944.3 In 1946 CC Flints (chm 1954), pres: UCNW Bangor 1947, Nat/l Museum of Wales 1952–57.3 He was Deputy Lieutenant (D.L.) in 1948.3 He was Commander, Order of the British Empire (C.B.E.) in 1972.3 He was dir: Lloyds Bank, Nat/l Provident Institute for Mutual Life Assur, Felixstowe Dock and Rlwy County in 1973.3

yes I saw that. If it had mentioned his police authority membership then it would have proven it, but the absence of it being mentioned doesn't prove that he wasn't.

It also doesn't list his being a freemasons grand master for north wales for instance, so it's obviously not an entirely complete list.

Him being listed as Deputy Lieutenant is also interesting, and does place him fairly high up in the local hierachy, as a deputy to the Lord Lieutenant, who according to Wiki has responsibilities including

Leading the local magistracy as chairman of the Advisory Committee on Justices of the Peace;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Lieutenant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deputy_Lieutenant

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I was referring to this post of yours, but tbf that was a while ago and I probably shouldn't have brought it up as I've mostly found your contribution to this thread helpful, it just stuck out in my head as being similar to elbows post in terms of saying I'm not joining the dots properly, but not giving any indication of in what way, or which dots.

Rather than striving to connect the dots, with or without the glue of freemasonry, (dots which may be unconnected or may make a rather different picture than the one you seem to be working on) why not concentrate on the actual detail of the dots; for example pursuing the issue of the apparent misidentification of the Lord's son rather than his lodge membership?

Louis MacNeice

 

[caoineadh7]

How does he know then?

They publish a year book, which list members, so they can contact each other.

He must have got hold of a copy.

This investigator also got hold of a copy.

 

[butchersapron]

They publish a year book, which list members, so they can contact each other.

He must have got hold of a copy.

Yes, that must be it.

Self-policing.

 

[free spirit]

Rather than striving to connect the dots, with or without the glue of freemasonry, (dots which may be unconnected or may make a rather different picture than the one you seem to be working on) why not concentrate on the actual detail of the dots; for example pursuing the issue of the apparent misidentification of the Lord's son rather than his lodge membership?

Louis MacNeice

this thread is aimed at the connection of the dots, hence the thread title.

the way I see it is that by illiminating potential connections we're actually moving forwards with being able to work out what actually did go on, and how multiple police, council and public inquiries and court cases were able to be nobbled (or potentially just corrupted by the processes involved) to the extent that despite dozens of witenesses testifying, pretty much nobody with any level of standing has been prosecuted.

It's actually quite a scientific approach IMO - hypothesise, test the hypothesis, discard it if it doesn't stand up to scrutiny, come up with a better hypothesis that better fits the known facts, test that hypothesis etc. Very different IMO to CT methods, which tend to forget to discard hypothesis that don't stand up to scrutiny.

 

[Kippa]

Do you think that Newsnight was set up for a fall when they did that program last week?

 

[ayatollah]

The current , much trumpeted, establishment line as they scrabble around to derail the emerging re-examination of ever more previous covered up or poorly investigated childrens home abuse cases across the country , is that we must at all costs avoid a "hysterical witchhunt" - particularly of course of spiffing pillar of the establishment types like Lord McAlpine.

This abhorrence of "witchhunts" of course has never included the witchhunting of militant trades unionists - particularly those working in the industry from which the mega rich (but academically extremely thick), Lord McAlpine draws most of his wealth:

Construction union Ucatt has accused the firm Sir Robert McAlpine of using blacklisting checks to vet workers building the 2012 Olympic stadium.
Ucatt leaders gave evidence last week to the Scottish Affairs Select Committee inquiry into the industry’s blacklist run by the now defunct Consulting Association (CA).
General secretary Steve Murphy told the committee, “Robert McAlpine was a big blacklister.” He revealed how during the CA’s final year of operation Sir Robert McAlpine paid £26,842.20 for background checks on workers.
Murphy drew the committee’s attention to the spike in Sir Robert McAlpine’s blacklisting activity in the third quarter of 2008. This corresponded with McAlpine’s building of the Olympic Stadium from late May.
From July–September 2008 McAlpine spent £12,839.20 making 5,836 checks—63 per day. “This figure was a lot higher than other quarters for any blacklisting firm,” Murphy said. McAlpine is currently subject to a legal claim by blacklisted workers.

Obviously the wrong sort of witchhunt !

 

[elbows]

Channel 4 news remained on form tonight. I suppose the main thing was the same as the tweet I quoted earlier, that the widow of another abuse victim says that he was also shown a picture by police and told it was Lord McAlpine.

Given that some of the old net stories we have read in recent weeks seem to make mention of a journalist showing quite poor quality photographs to victims, I do not rule out the possibility that these things have become conflated somehow.

As an aside, note the language near the end of an obituary of Lord Kenyon:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/obituary-lord-kenyon-2323831.html

I suspect that these activities, which I knew, and all the many others which I did not know, were not only welcome in themselves but also as a distraction from troubles, which seemed to come to him unfairly often. He bore them without complaint, and with the same fortitude that he stood his own infirmities.

 

[elbows]

Some useful summarising in the Guardian, with extra detail about the history of the error:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/nov/10/newsnight-mcalpine-scoop-rumour

But the profoundly embarrassing truth was that the story about McAlpine the paedophile was false from the start. Not only was it a fairly straightforward case of mistaken identity, but this fact had been known about by veteran journalists for more than 15 years. Messham's claims, however well intentioned, had already been carefully examined and rejected by the official Waterhouse inquiry in 1997. Simple journalistic checking would have revealed this.

McAlpine's cousin, Jimmie McAlpine, a prominent local businessman, was the one originally named by Wrexham inmates as the object of rumours. There was no evidence of actual sexual abuse in any event. These rather devastating facts are explicitly recorded in transcripts of the Waterhouse inquiry.

On 29 January 1998, one of the lawyers at the inquiry, Sir Geoffrey Nice QC, referred to notes of a meeting between a social worker and anObserver journalist, Dean Nelson, who had been investigating the home and its deputy head, Peter Howarth, who was eventually jailed for abusing the boys. The journalist wrote that a number of boys had told him that Jimmie McAlpine, president of the Wrexham golf club, "was heavily involved with Howarth and was his frequent golfing partner".

Nelson explained to the inquiry: "The name McAlpine was one that cropped up regularly … but it was never a name you could pin down. I mean, there were lots of McAlpines and it wasn't something that I took seriously."

Nice said: "It's very frustrating from the tribunal's point of view that the name is mouthed and then you ask further questions and you've nothing to grasp at all … The furthest we have ever got is that somebody called Jimmie was referred to."

Nelson replied "I think Jimmie McAlpine had been involved in some benevolent charity work, sponsoring various children's playgrounds. Some people drew an innuendo on that, but I certainly didn't. I never had any allegations … It was just one of the many, many, many rumours knocking around."

Years later another former inmate, Keith Gregory, gave some further context to the rumours. He explained that inmates would be taken over to Gethyn Hall, Jimmie's Wrexham home, to till its grounds in "work parties", and that McAlpine would visit the care home in his expensive car.
Messham, who testified to the inquiry under the name witness B, said that he believed a McAlpine was one of those who had abused him. But he would not say who told him so, or the man's first name.

The only concrete evidence he gave was that he believed the McAlpine in question was dead. Jimmie McAlpine had died in 1991.

There was a flurry of journalistic interest at the time in 1998 in the possibility that the Tory treasurer was being referred to. Lord McAlpine was temporarily so hounded by the press that he was forced to move to New York for a while. But it rapidly became clear that the whole thing was a mistake.

 

[free spirit]

The current , much trumpeted, establishment line as they scrabble around to derail the emerging re-examination of ever more previous covered up or poorly investigated childrens home abuse cases across the country , is that we must at all costs avoid a "hysterical witchhunt" - particularly of course of spiffing pillar of the establishment types like Lord McAlpine.

agreed.

he may not be a child molesting twat, but he is still a twat who deserves to take a lot of shit for stuff he has done IMO.

 

[Pickman's model]

As an aside, note the language near the end of an obituary of Lord Kenyon:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/obituary-lord-kenyon-2323831.html

you'll of course notice that most of the obituary is about his interest in books and the national portrait gallery. 'these other activities' which the obituary writer didn't know refers to everything before the final sentence in the paragraph beginning 'born on the border of england and wales'. are you intending to make yourself look stupid despite your sterling contributions on this thread?

 

[Pickman's model]

agreed.

he may not be a child molesting twat, but he is still a twat who deserves to take a lot of shit for stuff he has done IMO.

 

[free spirit]

Do you think that Newsnight was set up for a fall when they did that program last week?

I suspect they were just too keen to make amends for the savile broadcast being shelved and decided to take a gamble and 'shake the tree' to see what fell out.

 

[Woollyredhat]

Getting ready to watch channel 4 news again.

Meanwhile I'm going to go back to Peter Morrison yet again, since despite a lack of new detail I dont want this angle to drop off the radar.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...osses-desperate-atone-humiliation-Savile.html

​

​

​

It is quite amazing how the Morrison slant has been ignored by the media. He has been implicated by two mps. One is Currie, the other Rod Richards. Rod Richards who helped establish the inquiry into the North Wales abuse, links Morrison to the home. This is quote “What I do know is that Morrison was a paedophile. And the reason I know that is because of the North Wales child abuse scandal.” That is stunning. Shocking. Further to this, Nick Davies reported that Morrison had received cautions, for being caught with underage boys, by the police. There is evidence that the police were unwilling to enforce the law. Why? Why did they protect Morrison? Richards also links another Tory grandee to the home. However the abuse inquiry failed to mention him in their final report... why? Morrison was close to Thatcher, if he was revealed to be involved, it would send the whole government crashign down, and shake the pillars of parliament

ETA: Then there is the involvement of Hague, and that he must have known the names and accusations of the time, considering his post, yet he did nothing

Let's not forget also, as was mentioned earlier by Eileen Fairweathers article, how the benches for the media in the Waterhouse enquiry were almost empty. A huge event, considering the subject material, and the media weren't interested.

 

[elbows]

you'll of course notice that most of the obituary is about his interest in books and the national portrait gallery. 'these other activities' which the obituary writer didn't know refers to everything before the final sentence in the paragraph beginning 'born on the border of england and wales'. are you intending to make yourself look stupid despite your sterling contributions on this thread?

Perhaps I'll have to start using bold fonts. The bit I was trying to draw attention to was the way obituaries sometimes hint at stuff. In this case the bit of interest was supposed to be:

distraction from troubles, which seemed to come to him unfairly often


However its comforting to know that you will be there if I should ever soil myself in public.

 

[elbows]

And just in case it still isnt clear, I was groaning that the obituary didnt see fit to mention what any of the troubles were. I assume at least one of them was his son.

 

[Pickman's model]

However its comforting to know that you will be there if I should ever soil myself in public.

yeh, with a camera to record the moment for posterity

 

[elbows]

And some suitable soundtracks I hope.

 

[Pickman's model]

And just in case it still isnt clear, I was groaning that the obituary didnt see fit to mention what any of the troubles were. I assume at least one of them was his son.

let's find out shall we? or didn't it occur to you to investigate?

 

[Pickman's model]

The Times
May 20, 1993, Thursday

Lord Kenyon

SECTION: Features

LENGTH: 822 words



Lord Kenyon, CBE, chairman of the trustees of the National Portrait Gallery, 1966-88, died in Gredington, Shropshire, on May 16 aged 75. He was born on September 13, 1917.
WITH his network of friends in the arts and politics, and his ability to charm money out of a reluctant Treasury, Lord Kenyon was the perfect choice to be, for 22 years, chairman of the fifteen Trustees of the National Portrait Gallery. Although prepared to call on private money, as when he launched a national appeal to raise Pounds 50,000 for Sir Joshua Reynolds's portrait of Laurence Sterne in 1974, he was a fierce opponent of the Heath government's proposal to introduce admission charges.


He was not scared of paying large sums to prevent national treasures (such as Gainsborough's Sir Benjamin Truman) from leaving the country, and hardly let a single work of note escape his grasp. During his time there, he saw the gallery grow to house one of the most distinctive of the national collections.
Despite his poor sight (in later years he was almost blind), his appreciation for art was matched by an equal love for the written word. He sat on the Royal Commission for Historical Manuscripts from 1966 until earlier this year, and was chairman of the Friends of the National Libraries for 23 years. An avid book collector, with a fondness for very rare early English liturgical works, he owned editions of Caxton, Wynkyn de Worde and Richard Pynson.
He was also something of a printer in his own right: in 1978 he helped to relaunch one of Wales's most celebrated presses, the Gregynog Press, which enjoyed a reputation for fine printing between the wars. Welsh poetry, Welsh literature and works on typography, all were produced in a series of limited editions, beautifully bound, illustrated with wood-engravings and printed by hand.
Lloyd Tyrell-Kenyon was the elder son of the 4th Baron Kenyon, a Lord-in-Waiting to Queen Victoria, King Edward VII and King George V. He grew up on the Welsh borders, and succeeded to the peerage at the age of ten. Educated at Eton and Magdalene College, Cambridge, he joined the Shropshire Yeomanry in 1937 and served in the Royal Artillery during the second world war, but was invalided out with the rank of captain in 1943.
Kenyon had first proved himself as a museum administrator when appointed curator to the Fitzwilliam Museum, shortly after coming down from Cambridge. He was president of the National Museum of Wales, 1952-57, and sat on the Ancient Monuments Board for Wales, 1979-87. He was also active in the field of local health administration, serving as chairman of the Wrexham Powys and Mawddach Hospital Management Committee, 1960-74, and of the Clwyd Area Health Authority. He was president of the University College of North Wales, Bangor, from 1947 to 1982.
One of his greatest contributions to cultural life in Wales had been the key role he played in establishing an exhibition of Victorian portraiture at Bodelwyddan Castle at St Asaph. This was one of the finest collections of Victorian portraits, furniture and sculpture in the world, and the castle, built in the 19th century by a local slate baron, seemed the proper home for it. Carpets and curtains were specially woven and new gilded plasterwork installed to recreate the opulence of high Victorian interiors. The Victoria and Albert Museum lent furniture and the Royal Academy donated sculptures.
Clwyd Council had bought and helped to restore the building in the mid-1980s but in 1991 the council, by now Labour-controlled, voted to sell the castle as a theme park, in the interests of council debt restructuring. Kenyon was livid and outspoken about the decision, predicting that no major gallery would ever trust a local authority again.
He was generous with his own property. Living in the family seat at Gredington, he had little use for another family house, Kenyon Peel Hall, one of the finest examples of Tudor architecture in Lancashire. In 1954 he let it on a 99-year lease for a peppercorn rent to the Church Army and the Canine Defence League. He was not, however, interested in preservation for its own sake. He had the impractically large Gredington pulled down, and smaller, family houses built on the site.
When not working, he lived the life of the typical country gentleman. His fondness for hare coursing brought him into conflict on more than one occasion with anti-blood sports campaigners. When in London he could be found at Brooks's or the Cavalry and Guards.
Despite a jovial exterior, and the undoubted usefulness of his life, Kenyon had his share of calamities in the family, and was never in the best of health. He bore everything with a quiet sense of humour.
He married, in 1946, Leila Mary, widow of Hugh Peel of the Welsh Guards. They had three sons, one of whom predeceased him, and a daughter. The title passes to his elder son, Lloyd Tyrell-Kenyon.