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How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

It would be naive to pretend freemasonary plays and played no part in the cover-up in N Wales as evidenced by Lord Kenyon, Tom Kenyon's father, being the grandmaster flash or whatever these characters are called:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3DLdtjEG1FYbWJVaWxPaGxJeHc/edit

It is the power of freemasonary that is a problem, be it within the police, media, politics etc.

And it is the cover-ups that go on that need to be exposed.
 
ViolentPanda said:
1) It's the Hokey-Cokey. :p

2) What you or I believe is irrelevant. What is relevant is what can be proven. Otherwise, all you're doing is re-circulating rumour and anecdote.

3) There are upward of 3,000 lodges in England alone. Are you implying that they're all linked via a giant web of corruption?

4) Bribery is a fact of human existence. It's been around a lot longer than Fremasonry, as have churches (a notorious and much worse vector for corrupt behaviour over a much greater period of time).


I know people like to have something to focus on, but focusing on Freemasonry as the be-all and end-all risks missing all the other possible vectors of corruption that are available and may have been used.
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Whats your opinion on the sectarian anti-Catholic side of it ?
 
Perhaps it will be interesting to look at the timing of the last mainstream political thing about freemasons - I'm pretty sure that sometime in the last 10-20 years there was a bit of a commotion about it, in the press and parliament, with focus in particular on the police. But I've done nothing to look into this yet. Any ideas?
 
caoineadh7 said:
Whats your opinion on the sectarian anti-Catholic side of it ?
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That it's mutable. Some lodges are sectarian, many aren't. Some lodges include people from all faiths and none, some are mono-faith. Of course, Catholics are injuncted by Papal Decree from becoming Masons anyway, so...:D
 
elbows said:
Perhaps it will be interesting to look at the timing of the last mainstream political thing about freemasons - I'm pretty sure that sometime in the last 10-20 years there was a bit of a commotion about it, in the press and parliament, with focus in particular on the police. But I've done nothing to look into this yet. Any ideas?
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Isolated instances of corrupt coppers attempting to use their lodge connections to stymie disciplinary action, with the City of London police taking the biscuit in that field. Last big scandal was them too, Operation Countryman, but they're still riddled. The Met and most provincial police services have fewer lodges nowadays than they used to (used to be at least one, sometimes more, at every Met station), as do the British military and the Civil Service.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Isolated instances of corrupt coppers attempting to use their lodge connections to stymie disciplinary action, with the City of London police taking the biscuit in that field. Last big scandal was them too, Operation Countryman, but they're still riddled. The Met and most provincial police services have fewer lodges nowadays than they used to (used to be at least one, sometimes more, at every Met station), as do the British military and the Civil Service.
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The Vice Squad in the West End being brought by pornographers in lodges they both belonged to was not isolated.

Either was the corruption in Sussex Police in the 50s, the Chief constable was jailed.

http://www.finsburypublishing.co.uk/books/bent_cops.html


And dozens of other episodes.


The paedophile Mountbatten was head in Britain when he was alive, hes linked to child abuse in both Britain and Ireland. He was also close with Jimmy Savile and brought him into the Royal fold. Wonder why he was so generous ?


Its interesting the way they questioned Freddie Starr so quickly, but have not moved on the list of establishment figures.
 
caoineadh7 said:
The Vice Squad in the West End being brought by pornographers in lodges they both belonged to was not isolated.

Either was the corruption in Sussex Police in the 50s, the Chief constable was jailed.

http://www.finsburypublishing.co.uk/books/bent_cops.html


And dozens of other episodes.
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Isolated behaviour as opposed to institutionalised behaviour.

You're talking about different cases in different forces as though they form part of a contiguous whole of corrupt practices. They don't, and treating them as though they do leaves the way open for every two-bob conspira-nutter to claim that Freemasonry = corruption, and thence on to the Illuminati and to Jews drinking the blood of Christian children, and every other fleck of fly-shit the nutters can come up with.

Freemasons as corrupt individuals colluding within a lodge soesn't equate to Freemasonry as an institution being corrupt. I'm happy to acknowledge that there's a long history of corruption within Freemasonry, usually tied to the membership of a specific lodge or group of lodges (Freemasons can belong to as many different lodges as they wish), but there's a long history of corruption in every institution whose membership forms a closed community, it's just that it's easier to look t the more obvious and blame them, rather than looking at the less obvious and exploring their structures and crimes.
 
ViolentPanda said:
2) What you or I believe is irrelevant. What is relevant is what can be proven.
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you don't think that the operation of a secret society who's membership lists aren't generally public domain might result in any discussion that's based only on what can be proven being an extremely short discussion, probably confined to links between the masons and the rotary club?
 
teqniq said:
So a quick trawl through the MSM has the BBC being pilloried over the Newsnight debacle - however did they manage to fuck up this spectacularly?

Meanwhile there is little or no mention of the of the original allegations namely that there was abuse going on and that there were possibly highly-placed individuals involved. Is today a good day to bury unwelcome news?
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Guardian Comment is Free is broadly supportive of the charges and are people are cynical about what's going on in the media. Good to see.
 
free spirit said:
you don't think that the operation of a secret society who's membership lists aren't generally public domain might result in any discussion that's based only on what can be proven being an extremely short discussion, probably confined to links between the masons and the rotary club?
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It's hardly a "secret society" anymore. Most lodges "dine out" in public, so anyone with a camera and a pen and notebook can work out who local lodge members are. It's "quasi-secret" at best. The whole "secrecy" thing bit the dust around about an hour after the worldwide web became a reality. We also have the information and the tools to collate information about the practices and behaviour of Freemasons much more clearly and quickly than even 20 years ago. There's a bit of non-CT proof out there if you care to look for it (Lobster was historically quite good at the "no bullshit" approach to Masons), but a lot of people don't. I'm personally more worried about the effectively-secret society comprised of "old boy networks" within the upper levels of the Civil Service. Their practices are much more pernicious, and more well-hidden.
BTW, there aren't many links between Masonry and the Rotarians - the two conflict, as they cover similar ground with reference to charity work, plus a lot of Rotarians think Freemasonry is too (titter) "radical", if you can believe that.
 
ViolentPanda said:
And that nullifies my point about it being masons rather than Freemasonry itself being corrupt how, exactly?
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the masons individually may well still be corrupt / paedos etc but it's the connections they make through freemasonry, as well as potentially the activities and secrets that they witness at the lodge that can enable them to actually benefit from and get away with this corruption, particularly if it's widespread within a lodge, or other activities are that those masons wouldn't want to risk getting out.

eg in my example I gave earlier about the masonic lodge christmas party involving lots of the top coppers in the area, and a hired in group of strippers (story told to me by one of them a couple of years later), and lots of stuff going on that they'd not want getting back to their wives / public. This in itself didn't involve paedo activity, but nobody who was involved in that would be too keen on prosecuting any other members of the lodge who were there for anything they might get up to as it'd risk them making all the sordid details of their fetish parties public.

I don't think anyone's saying that all freemasons are evil, or all lodges are as bad as each other, but it absolutely is the freemasonry system that enables this to grow into a serious problem within lodges, rather than just being a few bad apples.
 
I was invited to a wedding held in a local freemason lodge. All in all, just your ordinary everyday sort of person attended. No odd handshakes were evident.

[/anecdote]
 
free spirit said:
the masons individually may well still be corrupt / paedos etc but it's the connections they make through freemasonry, as well as potentially the activities and secrets that they witness at the lodge that can enable them to actually benefit from and get away with this corruption, particularly if it's widespread within a lodge, or other activities are that those masons wouldn't want to risk getting out.
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You're making assumptions, though. You're assuming that Freemasonry is the vector, not any other common interest. I'm not against anyone going after Freemasonry if they've got a substantive argument, but IMO attacking on the premise that because they're Freemasons, and because Freemasonry is "secret" doesn't do the job - for example Freemasons have whistle-blown on their lodges and been upheld by Grand Lodge for doing so, with reference to corruption.

eg in my example I gave earlier about the masonic lodge christmas party involving lots of the top coppers in the area, and a hired in group of strippers (story told to me by one of them a couple of years later), and lots of stuff going on that they'd not want getting back to their wives / public. This in itself didn't involve paedo activity, but nobody who was involved in that would be too keen on prosecuting any other members of the lodge who were there for anything they might get up to as it'd risk them making all the sordid details of their fetish parties public.

I don't think anyone's saying that all freemasons are evil, or all lodges are as bad as each other, but it absolutely is the freemasonry system that enables this to grow into a serious problem within lodges, rather than just being a few bad apples.
Click to expand...

I said as much earlier. I said that any institution whose membership comprise a closed community will have a problem. You can't not have a problem. It doesn't make the institution corrupt, but it does make the membership easier to suborn. That's how Licio Gelli and Michele Sindona managed to construct Propaganda Due from members of other lodges, and then corrupt them utterly.
 
Right now, this masonry thing is just another distraction. Throw yourself into trying to prove links to shadowy organisations and you risk missing people who aren't in those organisations, and providing the people who would quite like to keep on covering all of this up with a handy stick to beat us all with.

Speculation is natural, and completely understandable, particularly when we are kept locked out of the processes of investigation and not told anything. But we should always take a moment, take a step back, and think about what we're focusing on and why.
 
elbows said:
And we thought the paranoid strain couldnt happen here due to years of well-polished crushing of conspiraloons :(
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I shouldnt have said we really, since I shouldnt make presumptions about what anyone else thinks.

Anyway, time for me to mangle the meaning of a song.

 
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