How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

[DotCommunist]

Somehow I don't think trying to distract with talk of the internet and witchunts is going to brush it all away, nice try at a distraction though it is...

 

[DJ Squelch]

Ian Bone trying to cover his tracks -
"Apologies, but the page you requested could not be found"
http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2012/1...-be-named-as-paedophile-on-newsnight-tonight/

 

[DotCommunist]

Ian Bone trying to cover his tracks -
"Apologies, but the page you requested could not be found"
http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2012/1...-be-named-as-paedophile-on-newsnight-tonight/

revisionism

 

[Yelkcub]

self-deleted

Stupid, pointless joke not related to serious matter

 

[Prole]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/in-a-small-town-where-the-tories-and-masons-hold-sway-1312466.html

Freemasons who sat on a council's planning committee have been found guilty of malpractice after a lengthy inquiry by the local-government ombudsman.
The investigation into their activities on the council at Canvey Island, Essex, began after complaints that they had given a fellow lodge member the go-ahead to build a leisure complex.

Links to freemasonary and N Wales child-abuse are covered in detail here.

edit: Nick Davies

 

[Prole]

Rob Wilson attacks Tom Watson on child abuse claims » Spectator Blogs

 

[where to]

Daniel Finkelstein (neo liberal Tines editorialist) has tweeted that Tom Watson's allegations are different to Messham's, not LM but connected to Righton.

 

[Prole]

Tom Watson is tweeting this:

The Shameful Truth

 

[where to]

Still silence from Nick Davies..

 

[where to]

Latest tweet from Watson confirms his PMQ was not related to N Wales.

It's interesting what his tweet doesn't say.

It may be beneficial to file the statements of prominent persons now leading the charge to shut this matter down.

 

[ViolentPanda]

....the legal system in this country is very badly rigged against kids like this and in favor of the high and mighty in terms of credibility, public interest, access to lawyers, and the council insurers / financial pressures on the councils etc to ensure allegations don't end up with big compensation payouts to victims. Though I do suspect there have been a few at high levels helping this process along through sly methods like the setting of the terms of the inquiry.

The criminal justice system has, of course, had legislation dictating the disposition of vulnerable witnesses for almost 10 years now, and yet they're still not rigourously enforced. Lawyers are still able to intimidate and bully vulnerable witnesses; to flim-flam and otherwise confuse the young or cognitively-disorganised; to accuse witnesses of fiction.

 

[ViolentPanda]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/in-a-small-town-where-the-tories-and-masons-hold-sway-1312466.html

Freemasons who sat on a council's planning committee have been found guilty of malpractice after a lengthy inquiry by the local-government ombudsman.
The investigation into their activities on the council at Canvey Island, Essex, began after complaints that they had given a fellow lodge member the go-ahead to build a leisure complex.

Okay. You've shown, anecdotally, how Freemasons at a lodge behaved corruptly. I could do the same with loads of examples of corruption in lodges.
Does that mean that every Mason is corrupt, that their organisation is one that suborns and corrupts its' members? Only if you believe some of the wilder and wackier theories about Freemasonry, none of which have much evidence to support them that wasn't constructed through the application of hindsight and rose-tinted specs.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Links to freemasonary and N Wales child-abuse are covered in detail here.

edit: Nick Davies

Link between freemasons and child abuse, not Freemasonry.

And before you ask, no, I'm not a Freemason. People with shared interests acting corruptly is an unfortunate fact of life, and Freemasonry can add an additional impetus to corruption through the various Masonic pledges that members make, dependent on how the member interprets those pledges.
Not every lodge is a Propaganda Due, though.

 

[ViolentPanda]

revisionism

The reactionary running-dog lackey and lickspittle!!!

 

[caoineadh7]

Link between freemasons and child abuse, not Freemasonry.

And before you ask, no, I'm not a Freemason. People with shared interests acting corruptly is an unfortunate fact of life, and Freemasonry can add an additional impetus to corruption through the various Masonic pledges that members make, dependent on how the member interprets those pledges.
Not every lodge is a Propaganda Due, though.

My ex girlfiends oldman was a Mason for many years, he had a building firm and did property development, he done very nicely out of his connections.


The connection in the Masons between developers and getting planning permission via council connections is well known, there have been reports all over the place.

 

[Citizen66]

My ex girlfiends oldman was a Mason for many years, he had a building firm and did property development, he done very nicely out of his connections.

And he was a paedo?

 

[caoineadh7]

Link between freemasons and child abuse, not Freemasonry.

And before you ask, no, I'm not a Freemason. People with shared interests acting corruptly is an unfortunate fact of life, and Freemasonry can add an additional impetus to corruption through the various Masonic pledges that members make, dependent on how the member interprets those pledges.
Not every lodge is a Propaganda Due, though.

They put the secret oath and loyalty to the Lodge above the morality of the outside world.

Hence corruption in planning etc.

 

[caoineadh7]

And he was a paedo?

Not that Im aware of, but if you join a secret org with people in positions of power in everyday life then things will happen and people will join to further their own agendas.

There have been investigations into relationships between cops and organised crime members in the Masons going back decades.

 

[ViolentPanda]

My ex girlfiends oldman was a Mason for many years, he had a building firm and did property development, he done very nicely out of his connections.


The connection in the Masons between developers and getting planning permission via council connections is well known, there have been reports all over the place.

And that nullifies my point about it being masons rather than Freemasonry itself being corrupt how, exactly?

 

[teqniq]

So a quick trawl through the MSM has the BBC being pilloried over the Newsnight debacle - however did they manage to fuck up this spectacularly?

Meanwhile there is little or no mention of the of the original allegations namely that there was abuse going on and that there were possibly highly-placed individuals involved. Is today a good day to bury unwelcome news?

 

[ViolentPanda]

They put the secret oath and loyalty to the Lodge above the morality of the outside world.

Hence corruption in planning etc.

Who's "they"?
Some Masons put their pledge (it's not secret, by the way - every fucker knows about it) before anything else, others don't. You're extrapolating from examples of corruption that the institution of Freemasonry itself is corrupt. It may well be, but I've never seen convincing evidence that such is the case, and unlike some sceptics, I actually bother to read the evidence.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not that Im aware of, but if you join a secret org with people in positions of power in everyday life then things will happen and people will join to further their own agendas.

There have been investigations into relationships between cops and organised crime members in the Masons going back decades.

Going back as long as there have been police services.

 

[Citizen66]

Going back as long as there have been police services.

Exactly. It's not like they needed the freemasons in order to become corrupt and form mutually beneficial relationships with undesirables.

 

[Buckaroo]

So a quick trawl through the MSM has the BBC being pilloried over the Newsnight debacle - however did they manage to fuck up this spectacularly?
Maybe Kirsty Wark is a mason and she's orchestrated an ingenious plan to undermine any future investigations

 

[caoineadh7]

And that nullifies my point about it being masons rather than Freemasonry itself being corrupt how, exactly?

You dont seriously believe most people join to do the Ocki-Koki or ride the Goat do you ?

At best its to further their careers, in other cases other agendas.

Once you are in you are in, hence Kenny Noye having roast beef on Sundays at the Parkhurst governors home.

Also connections between customs and excise and serious organised crime via membership.

If your a serious crim, joining is one of the best ways to make friends in positions such as customs and excise who you can seek to corrupt via bribery to further your agenda.

 

[Buckaroo]

Kirsty bloody Wark

 

[Corax]

Who's "they"?
Some Masons put their pledge (it's not secret, by the way - every fucker knows about it) before anything else, others don't. You're extrapolating from examples of corruption that the institution of Freemasonry itself is corrupt. It may well be, but I've never seen convincing evidence that such is the case, and unlike some sceptics, I actually bother to read the evidence.

I don't know anywhere near enough to have an opinion on the masons either way. But don't many of us do the same thing you're talking about with the police, with the rationale that by not speaking out they're part of the problem?

I dunno - I'm asking a question/making a tentative observation, rather than making a decisive point really.

 

[teqniq]

Meanwhile there is little or no mention of the of the original allegations namely that there was abuse going on and that there were possibly highly-placed individuals involved. Is today a good day to bury unwelcome news?

Actually I missed this though it is being somewhat swamped by the furore over Newsnight:

Dozens of new allegations of sexual abuse have surfaced in Wales as child protection experts warned that the focus on mistaken allegations involving the Tory peer Lord McAlpine meant there was a danger the victims were being forgotten.

Thirty-six people have contacted the office of the children's commissioner for Wales, Keith Towler, since the north Wales residential homes abuse scandal broke last weekend.

Of these, 22 have spoken of abuse they say they suffered at Bryn Estyn in Wrexham and the network of homes connected to it. Another 14 have told of historic abuse in other settings.

On top of those who have gone to the children's commissioner it is known that a number of others – perhaps dozens more – have contacted politicians and solicitors to report abuse and ask for help.

In an interview with the Guardian, Towler expressed concern that the intense speculation over rumours of McAlpine's involvement, subsequently shown to have been false, meant there was a danger the victims were being forgotten.....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/nov/09/wales-child-abuse-scandal-more-claims

 

[ViolentPanda]

You dont seriously believe most people join to do the Ocki-Koki or ride the Goat do you ?

At best its to further their careers, in other cases other agendas.

Once you are in you are in, hence Kenny Noye having roast beef on Sundays at the Parkhurst governors home.

Also connections between customs and excise and serious organised crime via membership.

If your a serious crim, joining is one of the best ways to make friends in positions such as customs and excise who you can seek to corrupt via bribery to further your agenda.

1) It's the Hokey-Cokey.

2) What you or I believe is irrelevant. What is relevant is what can be proven. Otherwise, all you're doing is re-circulating rumour and anecdote.

3) There are upward of 3,000 lodges in England alone. Are you implying that they're all linked via a giant web of corruption?

4) Bribery is a fact of human existence. It's been around a lot longer than Fremasonry, as have churches (a notorious and much worse vector for corrupt behaviour over a much greater period of time).


I know people like to have something to focus on, but focusing on Freemasonry as the be-all and end-all risks missing all the other possible vectors of corruption that are available and may have been used.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't know anywhere near enough to have an opinion on the masons either way. But don't many of us do the same thing you're talking about with the police, with the rationale that by not speaking out they're part of the problem?

I dunno - I'm asking a question/making a tentative observation, rather than making a decisive point really.

You have a point if you're referring to the way that some people make a blanket condemnation of the police, although in terms of institutional behaviour, Freemasonry is fairly clean, whereas policing isn't. Freemasonry does actually "police" lodges that are reported to have fallen into disrepute (and usually closes them down), whereas the Old Bill favour the cover-up and a bit of pensioning-off - behaviour that doesn't actually solve any problems, but does make them go away for a while.