How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

[Barking_Mad]

Peter Morrison - just to recap in all this. From the Fail on the 27th October

A former Tory Minister last night made incendiary claims that one of Margaret Thatcher’s closest aides was implicated in one of the most harrowing child abuse scandals of recent times.
Rod Richards, a former Conservative MP and ex-leader of the Welsh Tories, made the shocking allegation that he had seen evidence linking Sir Peter Morrison to the North Wales children’s homes case, in which up to 650 children in 40 homes were sexually, physically and emotionally abused over 20 years.

Mr Richards also linked a second leading Tory grandee – now dead – to the scandals at homes including Bryn Estyn and Bryn Alyn Hall, both near Wrexham.

He said official documents had identified the pair as frequent, unexplained visitors to the care homes.

Mr Richards – who helped establish the inquiry that unearthed the scale of the abuse – said bluntly: ‘What I do know is that Morrison was a paedophile. And the reason I know that is because of the North Wales child abuse scandal.’

He added that William Hague, who was Welsh Secretary at the time of the inquiry, ‘should have seen the evidence about Morrison’.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...paedophile-preyed-boys-home--Hague-known.html

 

[agricola]

Look at this another way - how would it have looked if it had come out that newsnight had sat on a specific allegation against a someone like Lord McAlpine despite having a direct accusation by the alleged victim on tape? Following on from them sitting on the savile investigation they'd have been slaughtered.

The rest of the media would perhaps have had a bit of a pop, but its fairly obvious that none of them would have ever run a story like that (where McAlpine or other people were named) anyway with the evidence that Newsnight had because of the overwhelming odds that they would lose the subsequent libel case.

 

[elbows]

If I had a pound for every time they mentioned the word trust on BBC news 24 just now, I would have at least £7.

Incurious George bites the dust.

 

[Treacle Toes]

54 days in post...and it's all his fault. Here you go, eat these crumbs and forget all about it!

The BBC brand is safe for now...The acting DG is a marketeer.

 

[elbows]

I've said it before, I'll say it again I think Kirsty Wark is a mason and there's Paul Mason. Join the dots.

 

[Lord Camomile]

Well, there he goes. Feel a bit sorry for him, baptism of fire is putting it mildly!

 

[free spirit]

a member of the north wales police authority? you're right to use the word 'alleged' in connection with that sort of serious allegation.

even if it would in fact be a matter of publick record.

There is also the Times article linked to earlier in this thread which states the following

Tom Kenyon, the son of Lord Kenyon, a leading Freemason and member of the North Wales Police Authority, was an alleged abuser of boys in the area at the time. Both father and son have since died.

is that sufficient for you?

This effort to close down debate re the very obvious freemasons connection in this situation on the last few pages of this thread is like some sort of ill advised knew jerk reaction by those accustomed to assuming that all such allegations must be the stuff of conspiraloonacy.

It's absolutely right in this case that these links should be investigated, how much more evidence do people need than the fact that the father of one of the publicly named abusers was both the head of the regional free masonry, and on the board of the police authority, and was a deputy to the person who heads up the regional magistrates?

Plus the top local copper for the homes admitted to being a freemason on the record, while denying his involvement in the abuse of boys in the homes.

This deserves to be discussed properly, not dismissed by people assuming it's the masons so it must be CT crap.

 

[bi0boy]

I've never ever seen a red alert on all index pages like this on the BBC website before, I guess that's usually reserved for the death of the monarch or US president or whatever.

 

[elbows]

This effort to close down debate re the very obvious freemasons connection in this situation on the last few pages of this thread is like some sort of ill advised knew jerk reaction by those accustomed to assuming that all such allegations must be the stuff of conspiraloonacy.

Bollocks. Please dont confuse people debating your points, and making a fool of you in the process, with attempts to close down debate.

 

[Buckaroo]

What does that mean?

 

[free spirit]

Bollocks. Please dont confuse people debating your points, and making a fool of you in the process, with attempts to close down debate.

what do you call this then?

Freemasonry, is a distraction.

All that stuff about freemasons is a bunch of conspiraloon bullshit.

Right now, this masonry thing is just another distraction.

etc

also how the fuck do you work out that I've been made a fool of when I've just backed up my position?

or is it irrelevant that one of the abusers was the son of the regions top freemason (and member of the police board), as was the local copper with responsibility for the homes against whom multiple allegations were also made (though not proven)?

 

[smokedout]

This effort to close down debate re the very obvious freemasons connection in this situation on the last few pages of this thread is like some sort of ill advised knew jerk reaction by those accustomed to assuming that all such allegations must be the stuff of conspiraloonacy.

what bollocks, even if some freemasons were involved, which they doubtless were, the real conspiracy, which is that they were noncing children, far outweighs any invented freemason conspiracies. allegiences and behaviour would be directed into covering up the abuse, not protecting freemasonry - thats why i mentioned the drugs scene, it doesnt need lodges for large numbers of people to act secretly and illegally - if anything the lodges are a hindrance, not a help to the real conspiracy being maintained and are no more important than the local golf club

 

[smokedout]

or is it irrelevant that one of the abusers was the son of the regions top freemason (and member of the police board), as was the local copper with responsibility for the homes against whom multiple allegations were also made (though not proven)?

people from the same circles move in the same circles

 

[elbows]

What does that mean?

It means you are an idiot for suggesting that Paul Mason is a dot we should join.

 

[elbows]

people from the same circles move in the same circles

Indeed. And in a way its like the conspiraloon drool which appears to be based on freaking out that powerful people have power, use it to do stuff, and talk to each other.

 

[Buckaroo]

It means you are an idiot for suggesting that Paul Mason is a dot we should join.

Seriously, you think I was suggesting anything?

 

[elbows]

Seriously, you think I was suggesting anything?

Why say it then? Sloppy insinuation and shadow chasing goes with the conspiraloon territory, and it will not be ignored here.

 

[free spirit]

what bollocks, even if some freemasons were involved, which they doubtless were, the real conspiracy, which is that they were noncing children, far outweighs any invented freemason conspiracies. allegiences and behaviour would be directed into covering up the abuse, not protecting freemasonry - thats why i mentioned the drugs scene, it doesnt need lodges for large numbers of people to act secretly and illegally - if anything the lodges are a hindrance, not a help to the real conspiracy being maintained and are no more important than the local golf club

so we just ignore the evidence that's there in plain view of a connection because it doesn't fit some world view that the masons are always irrelevant?

fuck that.

I'm in no way saying that the freemason links are the be all and end all of this, but it'd be wrong to ignore them completely as well.

Or do you seriously think that the top mason in the area wouldn't use any influence or contacts made through his position in the masons to pull in favors to get his son out of trouble?

I suppose he could have gone in to the local police station and attempted to use his official position on the police board with the desk sergeant and hoped the desk sergeant would turn a blind eye instead of reporting him for abusing his position... or he could have used his masonic connection with a local copper who's admitted to being a mason to pull in a favor.

 

[free spirit]

people from the same circles move in the same circles

how is a local copper in the same circles as a member of the landed aristocracy?

the circle they were part of that gives them that connection was the freemasons

 

[elbows]

attempted to use his official position on the police board with the desk sergeant and hoped the desk sergeant would turn a blind eye instead of reporting him for abusing his position.

lol, what a grip on the nature of power and hierarchy you've got. No wonder you are having to look for more exotic explanations.

 

[elbows]

how is a local copper in the same circles as a member of the landed aristocracy?

Several other ways this can happen. Work-related incidental meetings, charity work, golf.

I think I will probably start a thread covering more general discussions about masons so that I can look at the subject more broadly, and without adding fuel to the unhelpful parts of this thread.

 

[smokedout]

Or do you seriously think that the top mason in the area wouldn't use any influence or contacts made through his position in the masons to pull in favors to get his son out of trouble?

I suppose he could have gone in to the local police station and attempted to use his official position on the police board with the desk sergeant and hoped the desk sergeant would turn a blind eye instead of reporting him for abusing his position... or he could have used his masonic connection with a local copper who's admitted to being a mason to pull in a favor.

you're missing the point completely. the network is held together because if one person goes down then everyone is at risk - that makes it very strong, particularly as the risks are so great. therefore the network is self-supporting, it doesnt want or need outsiders unless they join the shared risk and get involved.

sure on an individual level favours may be asked, but thats the same whether people drink in the same pub or use the same lodge. for freemasonry to be more important than where they drank, and therefore not a distraction, there needs to be established some systematic behaviour by non noncing masons to protect the nonces - there hasnt been and isnt likely to be unless you buy into the idea that organisationally freemasons would protect a paedophile ring for freemasonic reasons

 

[elbows]

And on that front I'd rather look at why there are historical examples of MPs not seeming terribly keen to have one of their own named in relation to terrible crimes.

 

[butchersapron]

Separately, I also note how Rob Wilson MP has been quick from the get-go to squash and undermine the recent reports and investigations into the child abuse scandals in various ways. Is he doing somebody's bidding? I only lay across the facts and wonder why he has been so instrumental in trying to nonsense it from the get go.

Jesus. Throw everything away. This is it? Some pathetic cui bono, over and over.

 

[butchersapron]

yep - it seems fairly obvious that someone will have been getting paid for supplying young boys from welsh (and probably other) homes for sex parties for London toffs in London, which is one of the allegation that was made in the last couple of days by one of the boys who alleges he was a regular at these sex parties.

Why must they be paid? Why not just be a paedo who can drive?

 

[baffled]

Newsnight have done everyone involved a favor IMO, albeit in a cackhanded way.

They've forced out into the open a persistent rumor that's been circulating for nearly 15 years or so precisely because the report tried to cover it up instead of just naming names but at the same time saying they'd believed the allegation not to be true for reasons x. y and z.

Lord McAlpine should be thanking newsnight for giving him the opportunity to clear his name in public instead of having to continue to live under that cloud IMO.

and for the rest of us, it removes that name and source of speculation from the picture.

Didn't Scallywag publicly name him decades ago?, seems odd to threaten legal action now but not sue them then.
I don't know much about the magazine but did it have a large audience?, the way media is now these thing take on a life of their own so need shutting down quickly whereas a publication with limited readership may be best ignored.

 

[Woollyredhat]

Jesus. Throw everything away. This is it? Some pathetic cui bono, over and over.

It's not some pathetic cui bono, it's looking and anaylsing how a story develops, and I simpy drew to the vehemency of which Rob Green has issued his attacks, especially his letter to Watson in particular, that uses Newsnight as ammo to attack him. It could very well be the carrying out of a political amnionsity, all I'm doing is noting the profligacy in which Wilson has been sticking his oar in concerning this.... particuarly trying to rubbish any hints of involvement when it came to government, despite Watson just making a request for an investigation into one, which I saw nothing wrong with, and don't see why Wilson was so adamant on rubbishing such a request for one. It was disrespectful at best.

 

[free spirit]

Why must they be paid? Why not just be a paedo who can drive?

anything's possible, but someone supplying regular minibuses full of underage boys for sex parties in London (which seem to be what is being alleged by one of those boys), is a bit much really just to be sorted out by a paedo doing a favor for fellow paedos.

apart from anything else, it's a hell of a risk to take when they could just as easily be noncing the boys back at the care homes.

 

[Woollyredhat]

Didn't Scallywag publicly name him decades ago?, seems odd to threaten legal action now but not sue them then.
I don't know much about the magazine but did it have a large audience?, the way media is now these thing take on a life of their own so need shutting down quickly whereas a publication with limited readership may be best ignored.

Lord McAlpine has been named several times, predating internet rumours.
The slurs against his name have indeed existed for over a decade before this.

ETA: Stemming from the inquiries of the North Wales Abuse.

 

[elbows]

Didn't Scallywag publicly name him decades ago?, seems odd to threaten legal action now but not sue them then.
I don't know much about the magazine but did it have a large audience?, the way media is now these thing take on a life of their own so need shutting down quickly whereas a publication with limited readership may be best ignored.

It was indeed considered best ignored on most of the occasions it tried to create a stink back in the day. And they had almost no money and tried to use that to make themselves less of a target. Because of this last point, when people in government finally went after them, they went for the printers and distributors.